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Post by ouroboros on Jan 21, 2022 16:27:44 GMT -5
I do not think he was Loco because Loco was twenty five to thrity years old and became a prominent chief after the death of Ponce in 1855. if Col.Hemsley met the chiefs near Paso del Norte, Lasady was maybe Lacérès, the prominent chief amont the Nednhis who was close to the Chihennes during the 1840's. Yes, I agree that your identification of Lasady with Laceres is more possible than mine.
Couerrouge, I wanted to ask you whether you know something of a Chihenne leader Jose Cito or Josecito? I've read that governor Meriwhether classified him as a Gila Apache.
I am curious because there was a Mescalero Leader called Josecito or Jose Cito. I wonder whether they are the same person, or two separate.
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Post by ouroboros on Jan 21, 2022 5:07:04 GMT -5
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Post by ouroboros on Jan 1, 2022 4:39:11 GMT -5
I searched for some infos on Mescalero-Chihenne-Agua Nueva relations in Harry Basehaert, Mescalero Apache subsistence patterns and socio-political organization, p. 86:
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Post by ouroboros on Dec 31, 2021 11:29:57 GMT -5
This is my guess, based on the work Ouroboros did on Zitachisene's gota, books on Chihennes (Dan Thrapp's Victorio, Eve ball's book on Kaywaykla story, Bud Shapard's Loco and Sweeney's books on Mangas Coloradas and Cochise),geograghy location and the 1876's census of the Chihennes from the NARA. At the beginning of my work of Naiche, I wrote this (about the time of Naiche's birth circa 1856) : " 2.2. A mixed gota named Ne-be-ke-yen-de of Bedonkohe-Chihenne Chiricahua located along the Santa Lucia Springs, near Piños Altos, had as Chief Kan-da-zis-tlishishen and headman his younger brother whose nickname was José Mangas.
2.3. In the East lived the Chihennes, more peaceful, whom in oral stories all the other bands came from. As I understand three strong and a smaller gotas composed this band. One located on the most sacred land of the Chiricahua in Ojo Caliente. Jlin-tay-i-tith (Loco) became the chief after the tragic death of Ponce in 1854. The second living south of the previous in the Mimbres was leading by Baishan (Cuchillo Negro), the most prominent and peaceful Chihenne’s Chief. He could be a band chief but because of the great influence of Kan-da-zis-tlishishen among the Chihennes, he was not. His subchiefs were Riñon and Bi-duye (Victorio). The gota lived near Dzisl-ta-natal (Cook’s Peak) and had close relationship with the Mescalero Apaches. The chief was Tudeevia (Delgadito) successfully help by Kas-tziden (Nana). This gota was more distant with the Americans. The small gota living near the abandoned mines of Santa Rita Del Cobre had as chief Itàn." I think there was at this time two others Chiricahua gotas. At the far South eastern of the Chiricahua's territory, no well know yet : Zitachisene's gota or the Blue Mountain/Agua Nueva's band. A mixed local group Chihenne/Mescalero. They were leaving East of the Rio Grande near El Paso and seemed to have close ties with Delgadito's chihenne gota. As former chief Gomez, in 1856 the chief was Venancio, his son. A lot known men in 1876 census were sometimes identified as Mescaleros or as Chihennes (Blanco, Caballo, Antonio, Gregorio for example) I think Nana was borned in this gota and by marrying a sister of Delgadito, he joined his Chihenne's gota and in 1861 Nana would become the chief, reinforcing the ties with the Zitachisene. Zeekarn, a sister but more surely a cousin of Nana lived in Zitachisene group was apparently a daughter of Chief. She was the maternal grand-mother of Kaywaykla. Her sons or nephews were Blanco, Suldeen and another younger brother of Blanco. Zeekarn (she was the old woman with white hair among the Tres Castillos' prisonners I think)<button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button><button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> had at least two daughters : Cleehn (the third wife of Loco) and Guyan (the wife of Kaathenay). Also in the 1876 census, there was a single man called Tonto in the same page than Blanco. Tonto means Crazy in English and Crazy was the english translation of the N'de name Massai. Massai looked for refuge in the Mescalero's reservation when he escaped the train. At the far southwest of the Chihenne territory living along the Animas Mountains I think were another Chihenne's gota leading by Pluma (if not a Bedonkohe) certainly born circa 1790. Pluma was an important leader since 1820 to 1840 I think. They were close from the territory of Esqualine's Chokonen. In 1856, the gota seemed closer to the Chokonens and the subchief was maybe Miguel Tuerto and Pluma had maybe a niece or a daugther who married Chihuahua I guess (wife who died before 1872, I think). Aging and loosing influence, possibly the poisonning in Janos in 1857 and the Cochise's war whom Pluma was allied, reduced his gota to an extended's family ranchéria. Pluma was killed in july 1864 by US soldiers while he protected his family with rocks. I think, Kaathenay (born c.1858) be said to be a son of a chief, was his son as Bacutla (born 1840) the older, Nezulkide (born c.1845) and Kinzhuna (born c.1863), the youngest. Bacutla, Nzulkide and Kaathenay were, I think, the three Pluma I identified in the Chihenne's census. An excellent post coeurrouge! A superb analysis of the Chihenne gotas.
I tried to look for some infos on Nana and the Mescaleros, and there is a an info by Paul Andrew Hutton, The Apache Wars: The Hunt for Geronimo, the Apache Kid, and the Captive Boy, p. 231, that:
Unfortunatly, Hutton does not provide the source from which he took this info, so its value is rather average.
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Post by ouroboros on Dec 29, 2021 4:12:55 GMT -5
I read somewhere that Nana could be Mescalero and became Chihenne by marrying a sister of Delgadito (his mocassin on Randall's photo in 1884, seemed to be not Chirihua' style). But it was also said he was a true Chihenne very acquainted with the Mescaleros. Many thanks coeurrouge, fascinating info! I will look for Nana's ancestry infos.
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Post by ouroboros on Dec 28, 2021 11:56:16 GMT -5
You can download the first 40 volumes without any registration issues. Vol. 39, no. 1 contains the superb paper by Ralph A. Smith, The Comanche Bridge, 1843-1844
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Post by ouroboros on Dec 28, 2021 4:24:43 GMT -5
The eastern border of the Chihenne territory constituted the Rio Grande del Norte, a border river between them and the Mescalero Apaches. In 1846-7 Lieut. Col. William Hemsley Emory on his military reconnaissance noted that Red Sleeve (i.e. Mangas Coloradas), Black Knife (i.e. Baishan or Cuchillo Negro), and Lasady are “the three principal chiefs of the Apaches on the west of the Del Norte; Gomez is the headman of those on the east of the Del Norte”. Both Mangas and Gómez made huge influence on the bands of the Chihenne. Mangas – probably a Bedonkohe by birth – was most likely a nantan of the Mimbres (“Willow”) local group of the Chihenne. However it would be mistaken to think that he was a principal chief of the whole Chihenne people. As noted by Jason Betzinez the Warm Springs local group (I fought with Geronimo, p. 9): “which we called Chihennes, never recognized Mangas as their chief”. The Warm Springs were led by Baishan/Cuchillo Negro, and after his death – by Tudeevia who was possibly the same man as that known to whites as Delgadito. Gómez and after his death his son Venancio (Verancia) had an influence on the Chihenne. They both were leaders of the so-called Agua Nueva Apaches, who often classified as a band of the Mescaleros, could be in fact a separate and distinct group, or even an off-shoot of the Warm Springs. In the treaty of 1842 between Mexican authorities and the Nde groups from Aguanueva region Gómez represented not the Mescalero Apaches but the Mimbres Apaches: The Agua Nueva recognized the Chihenne as their kinsmen. The complex relationship between these two was characterised by Harry W. Baseheart as follows: Possibly, the Agua Nueva Apaches were the same as the “Blue Mountain” Apaches – “dziƚdak?ƚijende” or “Zitachisene”, who according to Percy Big Mouth were a “splinter group of the Warm Springs Apaches”: More on the Zitachieene: amertribes.proboards.com/thread/3411/tsebekinende-agua-nueva-zitachisene?page=1&scrollTo=26947The Chihenne recognized the Mescaleros as their kinsfolk: Jason Betzinez's, I fought with Geronimo, p. 43:
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Post by ouroboros on Dec 27, 2021 6:58:50 GMT -5
Through the years I have gathered many informations on the Chihinne/Chihenne and I am happy to share it. I will start with the many times asked question were the Chihinne a band of the Chricahua Apaches?
Although the anthropologist used to lump three – or four – Apache bands under the umbrella term ‘Chiricahua Apaches’ it should be emphasized that the central Nde have a different opinion on that matter. They did not perceive themselves as members of one ‘Chiricahua tribe’, but as members of three or four separate peoples, who are bound by kinship and cultural ties.
One of them – the so-called easternmost band – are the Chihinne or Chihenne, the ‘Red-Paint People’. The members of this people strongly disagree with the anthropologist who used to classify them as ‘Eastern Chiricahuas’
I have collected some statements by members of the Nde people which strongly emphasize that the Chihinne/Chihenne are not a band of the Chiricahua.
Lets start with James Kaywakla a member of the Warm Springs division of the Chihinne/Chihenne. Quoted from: Eve Ball (Author), James Kaywakla (Narrator), In the Days of Victorio: Recollections of a Warm Springs Apache, p. xiv:
The second quotation is a statement of Asa Daklugie, the son of the formidable Nednhi nantan Juh (pronounced Whoa or Whoo) quoted from Eve Ball, Indeh: An Apache Odyssey, p. 22:
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Post by ouroboros on Dec 27, 2021 4:11:13 GMT -5
I came up on an information by Jason Betzinez, I fought with geronimo, p. 145 on the last Chiricahuas who did not surrender:
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Post by ouroboros on Dec 25, 2021 4:16:06 GMT -5
The personal account on the Apache way of life and wars against the US army by Geronimo's cousin Jason Beztinez is free to read on archive.org. A remarkable work, it is a window to Apache customs and history. You must only register on this website and borrow the book.
Here are two exemplars:
1): archive.org/details/ifoughtwithgeron0000unse 2): archive.org/details/ifoughtwithgeron0000unse
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Post by ouroboros on Dec 25, 2021 3:04:50 GMT -5
Jason Betzinez, I fought with Geronimo, p. 2, claims that: ibidem, p. 15, there is the whole Betzinez's opinion on the Nedhni, which I partially mentioned above: and ibidem, p. 76:
There was an opinion that the Nedhni/Netdahe were the most courtous of all Apaches. This can be supported by a fragment of Betzinez account - ibidem, p. 16:
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Post by ouroboros on Dec 24, 2021 4:20:30 GMT -5
There is an Apache account that the Warm Springs group of the Chihenne band recognized the Mescaleros as their kinsmen:
Jason Betzinez, I fought with Geronimo, p. 43: But it is not certain whether Betzinez thought of Mescaleros proper or rather of a mysterious Apache group called by the Europeans Agua Nuevas. It goes for the Zitachisene/dziłdakłijende "Blue Mountain People". They were sometimes classified as an ofshoot of the Warm Springs.
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Post by ouroboros on Dec 24, 2021 4:13:05 GMT -5
It should be noted here that there was a great hostility between Venancio and all Mescalero Chiefs except Manco, who was Venancio's father in law (see Basehaert, Mescalero Apache Subsistence Patterns and Socio-political Organization, p. 136). So one can conclude that there were amicable relations between Agua Nueva and the Chihenne, whilst there was a great deal of hostility between the former and the Mescalero groups (except the one led by Manco).
There is an important info in Jason Betzinez's, I fought with Geronimo, p. 43:
One must note that Betzinez - a member of the Warm Springs group of the Chihenne band - recognized the Mescaleros as kinsfolk. I wonder whether under the term Mescalero Betzinez has the Agua Nuevas band in mind. If yes, there are two proofs that the recognition of kinship ties between Agua Nuevas and Chihennes was bilateral - Venancio claimed that Warm Springs were kinsmen of his, and Beztinez claimed that Mescaleros were his kinsfolk.
The second observation from Betzinez account is that the Mescaleros sought refuge in Chihenne land in times of trouble. This should support the account of Venancio.
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Post by ouroboros on Nov 8, 2021 9:04:46 GMT -5
The argument presented here is not conclusive, but it can make a premise that the Aguanuevas were the same as the Zitachisene.
Lets quote one of the two existing descriptions of the leader of the Aguanuevas - Gómez. As Jose Policarpo Rodriguez, who was a scout of Whiting expedition in 1849 and encountered the Aguanueva Apaches, writes of Gómez's appearance: One should note form this description that Gómez spoke good Spanish, wore Mexican clothes, and looked like a Mexican. One should compare that with the above-quoted statement about the Zitachisene: It is clear that Gómez's appearance fits perfectly into this description, and perhaps it should be counted among the premises that the Zitachisene and Aguanuevas were one and the same people.
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Post by ouroboros on Nov 8, 2021 3:34:48 GMT -5
Conflicts between these two tribes resulted in many deaths on both sides – some important Comanche chiefs died in fight against the Apaches: Bajo el Sol died fighting the Mescaleros, and Yellow Wolf was killed by the Lipans in 1854. In the Lipan-Comanche war also another two important chiefs perished - in 1786 the Comanche chief known as Cabeza Rapada ("Shaved Head") - probably a Kotsoteka ("Buffalo eaters") leader - led of war-party of fifty Braves, searching of Apaches. They found a hunting camp of three hundred people of the Lipan, Mescalero and Lipiyan Apaches. They did not suprise the Apache camp and were surrounded by the enemy. Cabeza Rapada and twenty of his men died on the battlefield, the Apache lost nine warriors, see Sherry Robinson, I Fought a Good Fight: A History of the Lipan Apaches, p. 127.
On the Apache side: In 1801 (the date is not certain, but S. Robinson argues for it) the famous and warlike leader of the Lipiyanes Apache Picax-ande-yns-tinsle ("Strong arm") was killed in a battle against the Comanches, very likely of a Spanish bullet.
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