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Post by ouroboros on Jan 25, 2019 2:00:45 GMT -5
I thought that it would be interesting to create a Thread on relations between the many Nde groups and how one group perceived other group. I would not call it "intertribal" relations because the Nde never formed a single tribal unit. There are many interesting informations:
1) The Chihenne perceived the Nednais as Troublemakers:
Bud Shapard in his book 'Chief Loco: Apache Peacemaker,' p. 188 writes that: Although a few Chihennes had relatives by marriage among the Nednais, for the most part Loco's band never had much to do with them. The Warm springs people looked on the Nednais as uncivilized lowbrows, "true wild men...devoted entirely to warfare and raiding." Betzinez noted that "when they couldn't find anyone else to mistreat they fought among themselves. They were hard to deal with on friendly terms".
2) Bedonkohe (know to Mexicans and Americans as Mogollon Apaches) relations with the Chihenne:
William S. Kiser in his book 'Dragoons in Apacheland: Conquest and Resistance in Southern New Mexico, 1846-1861' argues that 'Delgadito, a chief of the Mimbres band living in the vicinity of old Fort Webster, told Dr. Steck that the Mogollons frequently antagonized him and his followers by “taunt[ing] them as women for being in treaty and receiving rations".'
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Post by ouroboros on Mar 15, 2019 3:48:51 GMT -5
3) There was sometimes a mutual dislike between bands of the Western Apache and Chiricahuas:
The Chiricahuas called the Western Apaches (especially the Tontos) "Bi-ni- e-Dine" which sometimes is translated as "brainless people".
4) There is an interesting info from John Bourke's "An Apache Campaign in the Sierra Madre":
Our Apache scouts the Tontos especially treated the Chiricahuas with dignified reserve: the Sierra Blancas (White Mountain) had intermarried with them, and were naturally more familiar, but all watched their rifles and cartridges very carefully to guard against treachery.
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natethegreat
Full Member
Long live the Indigenous Tribes of North America
Posts: 117
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Post by natethegreat on Mar 24, 2019 15:42:01 GMT -5
It is true that the Chiricahua and the Western Apaches did not get along very well. At San Carlos it was the White Mountain Apaches that treated the Chiricahua Apaches as inferior and had alot to do with the reasons why Geronimo broke out so many times. The Western Apaches generally did not have relations with the Chiricahua. Even during the Apache Wars, when almost every other band was fighting the U.S. and forming alliances to better survive with. The Lipans, Jicarillas, Mescaleros, Chihennes, Chokonens, Bedonkohes, Nednhis all at one point or the other helped eachother. The Western Apaches helped the U.S. more.
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Post by ouroboros on Mar 25, 2019 3:39:26 GMT -5
Thank you for your reply natethegreat
As for the relations between Lipans and Chiricahuas I found another interesting information - Sherry Robinson wrote that in the Geronimo Campaign the Lipans scouted agianst him, as the Lipans believed that the Chiricahuas led Mexican soldiers to the Lipan camps. On the other side, Geronimo and his warriors did not trust Lipans.
Eadem, I Fought a Good Fight: A History of the Lipan Apaches, p. 346.
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natethegreat
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Long live the Indigenous Tribes of North America
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Post by natethegreat on Apr 8, 2019 18:10:30 GMT -5
A big shock to Geronimo was that a member of his own band led General Miles to the Bavispe River deep in the Sierra Madre. Where Geronimo and Juh believed no white man would ever find them. He was Peaches, a member of Chattos Raid. Chatto himself scouted against Geronimo. I think the idea was that Geronimo was going to fight to the death and take all the remaining Chiricahua with him, and Chatto wanted them to live. Of course General Miles and General Crook, and President Grant all lied to the Apache. Chatto was imprisoned. All of the hundereds of Chiricahua scouts who scouted against their own people were imprisoned. It seems like only the White Mountain Apaches were spared. They truly were the enemies of the Chiricahua. I think that without the Chiricahua scouts fighting with the U.S. Army, the U.S. Army would have had a much more difficult time.
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Post by dT on Apr 8, 2019 21:47:31 GMT -5
Nate the Great. True. Geronimo and Juh were betrayed. But on the other hand, I was impressed that the young lieutenants in the US Army still could not catch Geronimo. Geronimo was in his 50's, I think. Or pretty close. And the young Army officers were in their20's. But tbey could not catch the old and wiley Indian. Hahaha!! Running through mtns is not easy ... it is tough on the heart and lungs. Geronimo was a very strong man all of his life. :-)
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Post by jasper4 on Apr 10, 2019 14:43:25 GMT -5
A big shock to Geronimo was that a member of his own band led General Miles to the Bavispe River deep in the Sierra Madre. Where Geronimo and Juh believed no white man would ever find them. He was Peaches, a member of Chattos Raid. Chatto himself scouted against Geronimo. I think the idea was that Geronimo was going to fight to the death and take all the remaining Chiricahua with him, and Chatto wanted them to live. Of course General Miles and General Crook, and President Grant all lied to the Apache. Chatto was imprisoned. All of the hundereds of Chiricahua scouts who scouted against their own people were imprisoned. It seems like only the White Mountain Apaches were spared. They truly were the enemies of the Chiricahua. I think that without the Chiricahua scouts fighting with the U.S. Army, the U.S. Army would have had a much more difficult time. item of note peaches was whitemountain had married a chirichua. he escaped then led the army to the hostiles
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Post by jasper4 on Apr 10, 2019 14:52:03 GMT -5
Nate the Great. True. Geronimo and Juh were betrayed. But on the other hand, I was impressed that the young lieutenants in the US Army still could not catch Geronimo. Geronimo was in his 50's, I think. Or pretty close. And the young Army officers were in their20's. But tbey could not catch the old and wiley Indian. Hahaha!! Running through mtns is not easy ... it is tough on the heart and lungs. Geronimo was a very strong man all of his life. :-) dagote my friend this a interesting thread about tribe interaction. fyi Good info as cultural traditions or traits were at times point of differences. Yet Geronimo became long time friend of whitemoutain nantan Alchesay who served as scout for the Ndaa aka army. Again good thread.
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Post by dT on Apr 13, 2019 20:19:29 GMT -5
Jasper4. Dagote. I hope that you are well. Thanks for the information about Geronimo. I did not know that. I have believed for a long time that Geronimo was trying to do his job as a Diiyin - truing to help his people. He was looking for things. I hope to see AZ again this year ... maybe late this year. The Chiricahua Mtns are a beautiful place.
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Post by ouroboros on Apr 16, 2019 2:36:34 GMT -5
Mescalero and Chiricahuas
According to Morris Opler, Apache Odyssey: A Journey Between Two Worlds, p. 9: "The western neighbors of the Mescalero were the Chiricahua Apache, the group closest to the Mescalero in language and culture. These two tribes were normally at peace, had reasonable amount of contact, and not infrequently offered a haven for each other's members during the troubled times immediately before the modern resevation period."
The Chricahuas, especially the eastern Chihenne, made journeys to the Mescalero Country to hunt Buffalo
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natethegreat
Full Member
Long live the Indigenous Tribes of North America
Posts: 117
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Post by natethegreat on May 10, 2019 17:32:35 GMT -5
Nate the Great. True. Geronimo and Juh were betrayed. But on the other hand, I was impressed that the young lieutenants in the US Army still could not catch Geronimo. Geronimo was in his 50's, I think. Or pretty close. And the young Army officers were in their20's. But tbey could not catch the old and wiley Indian. Hahaha!! Running through mtns is not easy ... it is tough on the heart and lungs. Geronimo was a very strong man all of his life. :-) I still wonder how a bunch of 20 years olds could not keep up with the 50 years old Geronimo. Hahaha
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Post by jasper4 on Aug 7, 2019 10:41:43 GMT -5
Mescalero and Chiricahuas According to Morris Opler, Apache Odyssey: A Journey Between Two Worlds, p. 9: "The western neighbors of the Mescalero were the Chiricahua Apache, the group closest to the Mescalero in language and culture. These two tribes were normally at peace, had reasonable amount of contact, and not infrequently offered a haven for each other's members during the troubled times immediately before the modern resevation period." The Chricahuas, especially the eastern Chihenne, made journeys to the Mescalero Country to hunt Buffalo Mescalero always been friends. 1913 POW nde from ft sill were given land up in whitetail on the mescalero rez. Opler did his work in 40s, or as my friend Ms Stockel said to me, he paid money and the indians told him what e wanted to hear. I still see Opler is good source.
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Post by chicheman on Aug 8, 2019 6:00:11 GMT -5
Chiricahuas and Mescaleros seem to habe been always in good relations and friends and intermarried. And fought side by side, as Mescaleros have been with Victorio often. Interesting what Jasper is mentioning on history and on Opler, thanks. As of the fact that Chiricahuas knew how to hunt buffalo and skinning them etc. I get that photo in mind, showing Geronimo skinning a buffalo in front of a group of Plains Indians watching. Guess that photo was done in Oklahoma and Geronimo sure was skilled in doing that job. Some people might think Apaches did not know much about buffalo, but that was sure vice versa, they knew very well, though they did not live in the main buffalo land, but bordering it. One thing I noticed recently is, that the Comanche called the Rio Grand by the name of "stinking buffalo river", for the fact that in former times there were so many buffalos around, guess it was because the buffaloes then left some excrements around so the name came into use. Also read somewhere that buffaloes in earlier times roamed south into northern Mexico, so Apaches sure were familiar with these animals.
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Post by ouroboros on Aug 8, 2019 7:23:33 GMT -5
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Post by chicheman on Aug 8, 2019 9:55:02 GMT -5
Thanks ouroboros for those additional informations, that´s very interesting, great. I wasn´t aware that bisons did reach that far into Mexico and also to the north once, a long time ago. Good sources and interesting reading, thank you.That shows clearly that Apaches were familiar with buffalos and hunting them.
greetings from Germany
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