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Post by grigoryev on Dec 1, 2014 16:42:32 GMT -5
With interest to review every topic Casa Oglala. We have a shortage of information. Basically, you can only find "Red Cloud Folk" and "Witness: A Hunkpapha Historian's Strong-Heart Song of the Lakotas". Therefore, each of your answer is very important to me. Thank you all for the information. Greetings from Russia.
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Post by grigoryev on Dec 1, 2014 16:25:21 GMT -5
Then there is the third Maximal band - Oyuhpe. If we take as a basis for your calculations on Miniconjou in 1805 were as follows: C. Oyuhpe or Taku-hkpa-ya from Oglala 1767 • Oyuhpe • Cut Testicles • Wakan
Then there is the third Maximal band - Oyuhpe. If we take as a basis for your calculations on Miniconjou in 1805 were as follows: C. Oyuhpe or Taku-hkpa-ya from Oglala 1767 • Oyuhpe • Cut Testicles • Wakan
In "Oglala Tribal Structure, Sun Dance 1835" you Oyukpe indicated thus: OYUHPE J. Oyuhpe-hcka • Tobacco • White Earrings • Left-Handed Oyuhpe . Enter A Virgin K. Susu-ikitchu • Charging Hawk • Eats Buffalo Meat (Kills Bear) • Used Up By the Mouth L. Other • Ghost Boy (from Hunkpatila-True Oglala) • Bear Stands Up (from Shiyo)
Also, I read somewhere, "During the years 1835-39 Oglala tribe has grown by about 25 lodges, which is significantly higher than the standard population growth Lakota, indicates that the majority of people who come from other tribal divisions Teton. I see most of the newcomers have joined the Oyuhpe at this stage, come from Miniconjou Saone and other groups. These newcomers can transform or enhance Wakan and Makaha tiyoshpayes Oyuhpe".
Could be considered in the distribution of Oyuhpe Minikoneu in my theme for Miniconjou band
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Post by grigoryev on Dec 1, 2014 15:16:41 GMT -5
Thanks Kingsley. As I understand it, at the 1846 True Oglala consist only of Yellow Eagle band? Or as specified by you in "As a tribal baseline during winter 1867-68" this band is divided into Yellow Thunder tiyoshpaye and Refuse to Move tiyoshpaye?
Bad Face has become a separate entity including Smoke, Red Cloud, Brave Bear and Black Stone family. At this time Shikshichela already attached to Bad Face? Or will it be later?
Payabya become the fourth group of sub-band hunkpatila.
Approximately get the following picture: HUNKPATILA-TRUE OGLALA A.True Oglala 1. Yellow Thunder Iglakatekhila, Refuse to Move Camp B.Ite Sica, Плохие Лица 2. Brave Bear 3. Smoke 4. Red Cloud Lone Man family 5. Black Rock Cankahuhan, Sore Backs C.Hunkpatila-Payabya 6. Standing Bull III Mahpia Hanhepi, Night Cloud 7. Yellow Eagle Tishayaote, Red Lodge 8. Black Elk, Makes the Song Kapozhela, Lightweight 9. Man-Afraid-His-Horse Iron Hatchet family (Payabya) 10. Shell Man (from Shiyo) (Payabya) 11. Standing Bull II Family (Payabya)
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Post by grigoryev on Nov 29, 2014 16:49:40 GMT -5
Hello Kingsley, thanks for the extensive information. In your "Oglala Tribal Structure, Sun Dance 1835" as part of Oyuhpe mentioned Susu-ikitchu. According to the above you in the thread about the group Miniconjou among Oyuhpe no such band. Or this group was not formed from Miniconjou -Oyuhpe? As part of Susu-ikitchu you bring "Used Up By the Mouth". It is not connected with the group Iwayusota, Used Up by Begging (leads to Walks Underground, Black Bear families) from your "The Oglala Tribe in generation 1800-1825."? Just Iwayusota band did not present a "Oglala Tribal Structure, Sun Dance 1835", but then appears in the "OGLALA KIYUKSA BAND COMPOSITION, 1846.", a part of TRUE OGLALA Bad Wound
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Post by grigoryev on Nov 29, 2014 16:20:35 GMT -5
Changes in period 1805-1825: Population in 1825 is estimated at 2200 (Gen. H. Atkinson report), representing a 10% increase on 1804 reconstruction. Since the norm for all Tetons is approximately 17.5% growth across 1804-1825 (see K. M. Bray, ‘Teton Sioux Population History, 1655-1881’, Nebraska History, 75: 2, p. 174, Table 3), this suggests as much as 150 people net loss, i.e. joining the other Lakota division
Maximal band, or oshpaye the Taku-hkpa-ya, assigned them 65 lodges, approximately 650 people:
A. Wakpokiyan Flies Along the Creek • Wakpokiyan proper One Horn family: from Santee 1745? • Hunkapi, or “Grandmother Band” (from Hohwozhu) Lame Deer family • Shikshichela from Santee 1745? • Big Belly from intermarriage with Two Kettles?
B. Wagleza-owin Gartersnake Earring • Wagleza-owin proper Little Crow family • From Hohwozhu Humpback family • Another tiyoshpaye? Ista-caniye?
C. Oyuhpe or Taku-hkpa-ya from Oglala 1767 • Oyuhpe • Cut Testicles • Wakan
Maximal band, or oshpaye, the Miniconjou proper. In c. 1825 I think they number about 85 lodges, 850 people, about 10 or 12 tiyoshpaye (or more?):
A. Unkche-yuta, Dung Eaters. Corn Man (father of Crazy Horse's stepmothers) was the itanchan by 1830s
1. Unkche-yuta proper. 2. Maga-yuha, field owner 3. Maka-mignake (associated after c. 1850 with White Hollow Horns-Little Bear)
B. Glaglahecha, Slovenly. Associated with Swan dynasty from c. 1740 forward. 4. Glaglahecha proper. 5. Black-Topped Tipis 6. Swan 7. Tahuka (Buffalo Hide) - derived from core Hohwozhu band?
C. Inyanha-owin, Musselshell Earrings. 8. Pte San Hunka tiyoshpaye (Joseph White Bull belongs to dynastic family) 9. Feather Earrings tiyoshpaye 10. Fire Thunder tiyoshpaye
Maximal band, or oshpaye, Wanonwakteninan In 1825 the band numbered about 750 people, approximately 75 lodges and ten tiyoshpaye. Since the description of the Two Kettles says that Broken Arrow consisted of three divisions - Broken Arrow, Do not Eat Dogs and Two Kettles, presumably division is as follows:
A. Oohenunpa 1. Wanonwakteninan 2. Oiglapta, Eat Everything Up, Four Bears family 3. Shunka-yuteshni, Eat No Dogs Long Mandan family 4. Nige tanka, Big Belly 5. Mawahkota
Note. Divisions B and C requires clarification. B. Wanonwakteninan proper (This is my interpretation) 1. Wanonwakteninan 2. Wanhinwega, Broken Arrow 3. Keze Shicha, Bad Barbs - to Sichangu after 1832
С. Shunka-yuteshni, Eat No Dogs (This is my interpretation) 1. Shunka-yuteshni, Eat No Dogs - tiyoshpaye No Heart 2. Nige tanka, Big Belly
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Post by grigoryev on Nov 28, 2014 15:49:38 GMT -5
By the time of the establishment of Standing Rock Agency in the aftermath of the Treaty of 1868 the sacred hoop of the Hunkpapa tribe comprised as many as nine organized camps.
An early missionary obtained a complete list and the order assigned to the camps within the Hunkpapa tribal circle. Beginning with the position at the south side of the camp entrance, and continuing clockwise around the circle to the north side, the camps were ordered as follows: 1. Canka Ohan, Sore-Backs (of horses). Principal tiwahe: Running Antelope, Cross Bear. 2. Ce Ohba, Droopy thingy. Principal tiwahe: Little Bear, Long Soldier, Bear Ribs I and II, Bear Face, Iron Horn, Rain in the Face. 3. Tinazipe Sica, Bad Bows. Principal tiwahe: Sitting Bull, Four Horns, Black Moon. 4. Talonapin, Raw Meat Necklace. Principal tiwahe: Big Prairie Chicken, Charging Thunder, Spotted Horn Bull, Crow King, Scattering Bear, Long Dog, Iron Dog, Gall. 5. Kiglaska, Tied in the Middle. Principal tiwahe: (possibly) No Neck, Catch the Bear. 6. Ceknake Okisela, Half Breechcloth. Principal tiwahe: Little Prairie Chicken. 7. Siksicela, Bad Ones. Principal tiwahe: not known. 8. Wakan, Sacred. Principal tiwahe: Long Horn. 9. Hunska Canto-Juha, Legging Tobacco Pouch. Principal tiwahe: not known.
According to the Standing Rock informants of historian Stanley Vestal, whose biography of Sitting Bull and other writings are major contributions to Sioux history, the nine camps were grouped into two major tribal sub-divisions. These two maximal bands were called: (a) Icira, which Vestal’s informants translated as the “Band that separated & went together again.” (b) Canka Ohan, or Sore-Backs (of horses).
The Icira comprised bands 3-7 in the list above. Vestal sought detailed information on this group because it included Sitting Bull and his relatives. On Sitting Bull’s band affiliation he learned that it was “called the Bad Bows Band. Sometimes called Icira because Sitting Bull was chief of Icira & they joined [the] Bad Bows Band – Sitting Bull became chief”. Vestal devoted less inquiry to the second group, but the Sore-Backs undoubtedly comprised bands 1, 2, and possibly 8 and 9 in the list above.
We know that bands 1 and 2 were connected because two of the leading tiwahe were led by men who called each other ‘brother’ – Bear Ribs I and Running Antelope. Vestal’s observations are important because the two big divisions seem to have developed distinct political positions in relation to the Americans. The Icira division, which probably ranged further west, was opposed to American expansion and would take a lead in the Great Sioux War of 1876-77. The Sore-Backs division, whose hunting grounds were further east along the Missouri River, took a more peaceful attitude and its bands first settled at Standing Rock Agency.
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Post by grigoryev on Nov 28, 2014 15:13:13 GMT -5
Hello. Thank you all for your answers. Before proceeding further, I still have some questions. Usually they say that the epidemic has hit the 1849 Skokpa. But OGLALA KIYUKSA BAND COMPOSITION, 1846 Skokpa not look large group. Or joined them at that time, people from other groups, such as the same Shiyo? I read somewhere that the Two Faces and Blakfoot who hanged at Fort Laramie in 1865, was just one of Shiyo.
In addition, in the first post of this topic group Iwayusota, Used Up by Begging (leads to Walks Underground, Black Bear families) referred to as a part of True Oglala. Walks Underground assassinated in 1868. What is known about him and his family, as well as about the Black Bear?
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Post by grigoryev on Nov 28, 2014 14:09:51 GMT -5
Then can try to start from 1849 or 1855? All more or less large movements are completed. And 1840 was internal immigration from Sihasapa and Sans Arc. The truth was then reverse the process, which ended in 1855. Therefore, taking as a basis in 1849 or 1855 we get a relatively stable basic structure and can continue it as a back to 1800 and forward to 1890
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Post by grigoryev on Nov 28, 2014 13:32:22 GMT -5
It turned out that the group Big Belly has two maximal bands of the Miniconjou: Wanonwakteninan and Taku-hkpa-I-Wakpokiyan?
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Post by grigoryev on Nov 28, 2014 11:49:49 GMT -5
mentioned groups not only Two Kettles and Miniconjou
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Post by grigoryev on Nov 28, 2014 11:43:21 GMT -5
In accordance with the "Teton Sioux Population History, 1655-1881" taking the number of Miniconjou in 1805 about 200 lodges, we find that Wanonwakteninan is only about 45 lodges and 450 people in them. Taking into account the data on the Two Kettles, the composition of the group Broken Arrow will be something like this:
Wanonwakteninan
A. Wannawegha broken arrow
• Wannawegha proper, No Heart family • Sunkayutesni, Don’t Eat Dogs, Long Mandan family, but Long Mandan, Born 1804, was Sihasapa • Wanuwaktenula, Killed by Accident, Swift Bird family • Oohenunpa, Two Boilings, Two Lance family • Kheze, Fish Hook Barb
At Josephine Waggoner's eupominayutsya Two Kettles following groups: Oiglapta, Take All That Is Left Itazipcho sica, Bad Bows Thahuhayuta, Eat Hide Scrapings Chantewanica, No Heart Mnisala, Red Water Takhchapa, deer head Chincakize, Apache [Buechel] Chanhahake, Vertebra/Buffalo Hump Lejagadatcah, Inyan ha oin, Musselshell Earrings, Spotted Elk's band,
But also meets the following name Spotted Elk's band – Hehepiya, Foot of the Hills.
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Post by grigoryev on Nov 24, 2014 22:58:39 GMT -5
Dear Colleagues. Have the following proposition. Kingsley Bray presents data on the structure of the Oglala units, indicating the leaders. Maybe someone can share information about subgroups Hunkpapa indicating leading tiwahe? Since 1800. Then we add on 10-15-20 years. And highlight the main leaders and leading families in each period.
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Post by grigoryev on Nov 24, 2014 17:00:52 GMT -5
Thank you for your help. Tomorrow I'm tinkering table distribution in 1846. And in the northern group and Oyuhpe have any suggestions or comments?
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Post by grigoryev on Nov 24, 2014 16:49:26 GMT -5
Thanks Kingsley
May suggest some sources on the history Miniconjou? I was so inspired by your topic on the organization of the Oglala people that I had the idea to make similar layout and other nations Teton Lakota. Can try to make the basic structures for 10-20 years, similar to the Oglala? I invite everyone to join
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Post by grigoryev on Nov 24, 2014 16:15:29 GMT -5
Thanks kingsleybray
you as a part of Minissha not shown Le Borne. or it is listed under a different name?
You Set Ivayusota - is the name of the leader or the band name?
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