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Post by grigoryev on Jun 21, 2017 16:21:42 GMT -5
The question concerns Skokpa. Sits in Wallow mentioned here is the father of Calfskin Robe. And who is First Stone Walking? Is not he the father of Slow Bear? Is there anything else known about these two leaders of the early 19th century
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Post by grigoryev on Jun 21, 2017 15:22:36 GMT -5
Old Man Afraid of His Horses (b. 1802 - d. 1887)
Are there any data on the father and brothers of this famous leader?
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Post by grigoryev on Jun 7, 2017 15:12:30 GMT -5
Hello/ It was mentioned above that a small camp of five tents, Ti-Zaptan, broke away from the Tetons. However, such a group had sisetons. Could this be part of the sissetons that left the prairie to the thetons, and then moved away from them?
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Post by grigoryev on Jun 7, 2017 15:01:40 GMT -5
Hello. There was such a question. Hunkpapa has Tiyoshpaya Canka Ohan, Sore-Backs (of horses). How is it connected with the same name of Ogla's tyloshpaye, which was formed by the sons of the Black Stone? Is there a connection through the Black Stone or his parents from Hunkpapa?
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Post by grigoryev on May 24, 2017 13:14:57 GMT -5
The Sichangu Tribe in 1804.
Population in 1804 reconstructed as 2400 people, 240 lodges. Breakdown as reconstructed for 1804, contains five maximal bands (oshpaye), comprising approximately seven? camps or sub-bands (wichoti) and 24? tiyoshpaye (extended family clusters).
Maximal Band A. Isanyati Ektapa maximal band (oshpaye): approximately 800? people, 80? lodges in 1804.
1. Isanyati Ektapa, Toward the Santee, 1804 wakichunze - Black Bulls
• Isanyati Ektapa, Toward the Santee(headman unknown) • Kangi yuha, Crow Owner (headman Oshkate-pi, They Play With Him 1815) • Pispiza wichasha, Prairie Dog Men/People (headman unknown) • Walega-un-wohan, Boils in a Paunchskin (headman unknown)
2. Red-Top Tipis, 1804 wakichunze - unknown • Red-Top Tipis (headman unknown) • Corn-Owners (headman unknown)
Maximal Band B. Wacheunpa maximal band (oshpaye): approximately 400? people, 40? lodges in 1804.
1. Wacheunpa or Meat Roaster, 1804 wakichunze - Partisan
• Wacheunpa (headman unknown) • Ihanktonwan, Yankton (headman unknown) • Nahpapa, Leggings Hanging Down (headman unknown)
2. Kiyuksa, Bit in Two , 1804 wakichunze - unknown • Kiyuksa, Bit in Two (headman unknown) • Shawala, Shawnee (headman unknown) • Oyate Sicha, Bad Nation (headman unknown)
Maximal Band C. Sichangu proper maximal band (oshpaye): approximately 500? people, 50? lodges in 1804.
1. Sichangu proper, 1804 wakichunze - Medicine Bull
• Choka-tunwan, Middle Village (headman unknown) • Iyakoza, swollen knuckles (on a horse's leg) (headman • tiyoshpaye unknown (headman unknown) • tiyoshpaye unknown (headman unknown)
Maximal Band D. Wazhazha maximal band (oshpaye): approximately 300? people, 30? lodges in 1804.
1. Wazhazha, 1804 wakichunze - Mazomani
• Wazhazha (headman unknown) • tiyoshpaye unknown (headman unknown) • tiyoshpaye unknown (headman unknown)
Maximal Band E. Minisha maximal band (oshpaye): approximately 400? people, 40? lodges in 1804.
1. Minisha, Red Water, 1804 wakichunze - One Eye? or Red Water?
• Minisha, Red Water (headman unknown) • Apewan-tanka, Big Mane (headman unknown) • tiyoshpaye unknown (headman unknown)
2. unknown, 1804 wakichunze - One Eye? or Red Water?
• tiyoshpaye unknown (headman unknown) • tiyoshpaye unknown (headman unknown)
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Post by grigoryev on May 21, 2017 15:01:17 GMT -5
Hello How to subdivide sichangu into 1804? The following maximal bands are fixed: 1 Esahateaketarpar (Isanyati?), Isanyati, or Isanyati Ektapa, Toward the Santee. Largest band in 1804, chief Black Bull. Still rated a band in the Upper Brule tribal circle at Rosebud ca. 1880, settled in Okreek Community, leading families still included the Black Bulls. Part of the Loafer-Corn band division of the tribe by this period. 2 Warchinktarhe, Wacheunpa or Meat Roaster. Chief Partisan in 1804. Offshoot bands of this band at both Lower Brule and Rosebud. Little Thunder family was connected to this band in early times. Rosebud Wacheunpa groups settled at Grass Mountain. 3 Choketartowomb (Chokatowela), Choka-tunwan, Middle Village or Sichangu proper. The parent-band of the tribe, from which bands offshooted or to which outside bands joined. Chief Medicine Bull in 1804, descendant of same name was second chief at Lower Brule Agency after 1870. Part of the band also at Rosebud, name rendered Chokatowela, settled between Rosebud village and Parmelee. 4 Ozash (see Wazhazha), Wazhazha, Osage. Smallest band in 1804, chief Mazomani. Later associated with the Upper Brules and Oglalas, with bands settled at both Rosebud (Black Pipe District) and Pine Ridge (Porcupine District). 5 Menesharne (see Minisala). Minisha, Red Water. Band broke up in 1840s, part joining the Oglalas and part the Sans Arcs. Undoubtedly some families joined other Brule bands. A man with the personal name Red Water crops up in some Lower Brule censuses. The band name was borne by a Sans Arc band associated with the keepers of the Calf Pipe Bundle, and I think the band originated there. Part joined the emerging Brule tribe in period 1750-75.
To which of them were Red-Topped Tipis joined after 1802?
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Post by grigoryev on May 21, 2017 14:54:46 GMT -5
Hello. Does anyone have a map of the resettlement of the Tetons at 1800? I have a hypothesis that the lands minnekonjou were caught between the southern - sichangu and oglala and northern tetons - sihazapa and itazipcho. And it was the lack of free lands that made certain sub-bands migrate to the south - first to sichangu (Ashke and Red-Topped Tipis, later after 1832 Keze Shicha), then to oglala(Oyuhpe and Wagleza-owin and part Broken Arrow).
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Post by grigoryev on May 17, 2017 17:12:38 GMT -5
Tiyochesli
After 1835, part of Shiyo moved to Brule. In 1855 Stabber is mentioned among Wazhazha. It is possible that this is the tiyoshpaye Tiyochesli went to Brule and began to live with Wazhazha
Refuse to Move Camp, Iglakatekhila
Refuse to Move Camp in 1835 were among the sub-bands of True Oglala, who did not go south along with Bull Bear. As Kingsley reported, they were one of the sub-band Wazhazha. And in 1835 were listed among True Oglala. Therefore, they most likely came along with one of the waves of Kukhinyan.
Earth Eater, Maka Yuta
What is known about this sub-band of True Oglala? What is known about the family Earth Eater?
Red Rattle, Wagmuha Luta
About Yellow Eagle it is known that in 1850 he headed the sub-band Red Lodge, Tishayaote. Is it the same sub-group or new tiyoshpaye emerging from Red Rattle? About the Yellow Eagle family I would like to know more. On the one hand, he is always mentioned as one of the most important chiefs of Hunkapatilla, on the other side there is no data about the family. How many wives, how many children, etc.
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Post by grigoryev on May 15, 2017 15:12:57 GMT -5
Hello. Here's what happened to me on 1825. Population in 1825 is estimated at 1500 (Gen. H. Atkinson report), representing a 50% increase on 1804 reconstruction. Maximal Band A. Oglala proper maximal band (oshpaye): approximately 500 people, 50 lodges 1. Hunkpatila – 1825 wakichunze Ghost Boy; three sub-bands or wicho-ti • Red Rattle, Wagmuha Luta (headman Yellow Eagle III) • Lightning Lance, Wahukeza Wakangli (headman Black Elk I, Hehaka Sapa) • Owl Wing, Hupahu Hinhan (headman Ghost Boy)* *When he died headman White Owl, Hinhan Ska? Ghost Boy was married to his daughter? 2. True Oglala – 1825 wakichunze Standing Bull II; five? sub-bands • Earth Eater, Maka Yuta (headman?)* • Bad Speakers, Iya-shicha (headman Sitting Bear II, Mato Iyotake II?) • Bear People, Mato Oyate (headman ?)** • Cowrie Shell Earrings, Wakmuha-owin (headman Standing Bull II, Tatanka Nazhin II) • Refuse to Move Camp, Iglakatekhila (headmen by 1840+ is Yellow Thunder)*** *Who inherited to the headman Earth Eater? **Who inherited to the headman Bear Eats Roots, Mato Wayuhtata? ***Refuse to Move Camp in 1835 were among the sub-bands of True Oglala, who did not go south along with Bull Bear. As Kingsley reported, they were one of the sub-band Wazhazha. And in 1835 were listed among True Oglala. Therefore, they most likely came along with one of the waves of Kukhinyan. Maximal Band B. Kuhinyan maximal band (oshpaye). approximately 450 people, 45 lodges 1. Kiyuksa or Kiyaksa – 1825 wakichunze Crazy Bear; five sub-bands • Bad Face, Ite Shicha (headman Yellow Leggings)* • Two Arrows-Lone Man tiyoshpaye (amalgamates with Bad Face period 1825-1840), headman Lone Man • Kiyaksa i, Bitten in Two (headman Bull Bear) • Kiyaksa ii, (headman Two Crow or headman Short-Haired Bear?) • Ground Squirrel Eaters, Tashnahecha-yuta (headman Bad Wound, Owe-shicha) *Among the Bad Face mentioned Little Bad Wolf, who was married to the sister of the famous Red Cloud and in whose tent the last lived before his wedding. By age, it may well be one of the sons of Yellow Leggings. 2. Kuhinyan. • Little Bull tiyoshpaye (leads to Whistler-Two Lance family) • Paints His Chin Red tiyoshpaye (leads to Little Dog-Spotted Horse-Big Brain-No Flesh families) 3.Kuhinyan II? • Tashunka Wakangli (Lightning Horse), headman Man Afraid of His Horse Maximal Band C. Shiyo maximal band (oshpaye). Comprised three main bands. approximately 550 people, 55 lodges 1. Defecates in Lodge • Defecates in Lodge, Tiyochesli (headman Stabber)* *After 1835, part of Shiyo moved to Brule. In 1855 Stabber is mentioned among Wazhazha. It is possible that this is the tiyoshpaye Tiyochesli went to Brule and began to live with Wazhazha 2. Shiyo proper, 1825 wakichunze Shoulder; two sub-bands: • Sharptail Grouse, Shiyo (headmen Shoulder) • Hollowed-out, Skokpa (headman Calfskin Robe, headman Slow Bear I)* *headmen Calfskin Robe was son of Sits in Wallow, his cousin Slow Bear I can be son of First Stone Walking 3. Payabya, 1825 wakichunze ; three sub-bands: • Never Misses, Wotanyeya (headman ?)* • Black Calf, Ptehinchala Sapa (headman ?)**• Southern Nation, Itokaga oyate (headman ?)***
*Who inherited to the headman White Rock? **Who inherited to the headman Hard to Understand? ***Who inherited to the headman Lives in Rocks, Iguga-o?
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Post by grigoryev on May 13, 2017 5:03:15 GMT -5
Dear Kingsley. How did the pitch change in 1815? And then 1825? Earlier it was mentioned that there were two waves New arrivals:
1. Possibly joins the Oglalas winter 1804-1805 in connection with the hunka ceremony reformation detailed in J. R. Walker traditions (Lakota Belief and Ritual, doc's 72-78).
• Little Bull family (leads to Whistler-Two Lance family) • Paints His Chin Red family (leads to Little Dog-Spotted Horse-Big Brain-No Flesh families)
2. Joins the Oglalas permanently 1820 (after period floating between Brule and Oglala circles, beginning 1812: cf. Cloud Shield winter count; He Dog statement to S. Mekeel).
• Two Arrows-Lone Man family (amalgamates with Bad Face period 1825-1840) • Lightning Horse, Man Afraid of His Horse family (becomes Payabya band, amalgamates with Hunkpatila camp period 1825-1840)
How did Man Afraid His Horse become associated with Payabia? Or did he belong to one of the three tiyospaye Payabya? In addition, there were marriages between sub-bands Standing Bull and Black Elk. Did this lead to what I assumed earlier to shift his tiyospaye to Hunkappila?
As I understand the first group and was actually Kuhinyan. Are the data available as the names of the tiyospaye which make up this group? This band with Kiyuksa form a new maximum group (ospaye) - Kukhinyan. If there were usually 7 camps in the tribal circle, with the arrival of this group, which groups united? True Oglala or True Shiyo?
The second band was apparently not part of Kuhinyan, as the two tiyospaye of its composition merged with the Bad Faces and Payabya, but did not join Kuhinyan. Or is it not true?
Thanks!
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Post by grigoryev on May 12, 2017 15:37:08 GMT -5
Thanks. Interesting. New information clarified some dark spots. At the same time, new questions are born. For example, new tiyospaye with new previously mentioned leaders is now shown. Secondly, some of the previously mentioned facts now require rethinking. For example, earlier tiyospaye Skokpa was considered one of the three tiyospaye Red Water. Only then it was joined by some of the disbanded sub-band Shiyo. Now we see that she was originally Shiyo.
Bad Face, we see already among the sub-band Kiyuksa, and not among the True Oglala. This explains why Bad Face and Kiyuksa in 1841 were in the same camp. But now it's unclear how the headman Yellow Leggings and the Brave Bear and Fast Whirlwind are related.
In addition, we see Payabya among Shiyo. And earlier it was said that this group was founded by the Iron Hatchet, having become related to the Man Affraid his horses.
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Post by grigoryev on May 11, 2017 16:36:36 GMT -5
THIRD GENERATION – Benjamin Clown Horse, son of Clown Horse and Edna ------- C. Benjamin Clown Horse, aka Bennie Clown Horse, (b. 31 Jan. 1898 - d. 1 Dec. 1944) SSN 503-12-3831 1st Married: date unknown, Julia Dirt Kettle (b. 15 Jan./27 Mar. 1899 - d. 15/16 Oct. 1969), daughter of Paul Dirt Kettle and Alice Eagle Woman Known children: 1. Esther Clown Horse (b. 1922 – d. unknown) 2. Celeste Clown Horse (b. 2 Aug. 1923 – d. 17 July 2007) 3. Scholastic Clown Horse {female} (b. 2 Jan. 1924 – d. unknown) 2nd Married (after divorce): date unknown, Fannie Red Bull (b. unknown – d. unknown), daughter of unknown Known children: 1. Florence Clown Horse {male} (b. 4 April 1926 – d. unknown) 2. Goldie B. Clown Horse {female} (b. 20 October 1928 – d. unknown) 3. Anna Laura Clown Horse (b. 1930 – d. unknown) Read more: oyate1.proboards.com/thread/1748#ixzz3gXSRUo5x
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Post by grigoryev on May 11, 2017 16:35:28 GMT -5
SECOND GENERATION – Clown Horse, son of Old Man Afraid of His Horses and unknown
B. Clown Horse, aka Tasunke Heyoka (b. Feb. 1842 - d. unknown) Married: date unknown, Edna ----- (b. Oct. 1846 – d. 1 July 1934), daughter of unknown Known children: 1. Frank Clown Horse (b. Sept. 1877 - d. 25 June 1940) Married: 1918 to Theresa ----- (b. 1883 – d. unknown), daughter of unknown Known children: unknown 2. Alma Clown Horse (b. Oct. 1883 – d. unknown) 3. Austin Clown Horse (b. June 1892 – d. unknown) 4. Benjamin Clown Horse, aka Bennie Clown Horse, (b. 31 Jan. 1898 - d. 1 Dec. 1944)
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Post by grigoryev on May 11, 2017 16:32:25 GMT -5
A. Old Man Afraid of His Horses (b. 1802 - d. 1887) 1st Married: date unknown, name unknown (b. unknown – d. unknown), daughter of unknown Known children: 1. Bull Bear {male} (b. unknown - d. unknown) 2. Red Star, aka Wicarpi Luta {male} (b. 1848 - d. unknown) Married: date unknown, Fannie ------ (b. 1866 – d. unknown), daughter of unknown Known children: a) Raymond Red Star (b. 1887 – d. unknown) b) Calvin Red Star (b. 1892 – d. unknown) c) Dan Red Star (b. 1895 – d. unknown) d) Bettie Red Star (b. 1898 – d. unknown) 3. Black Mountain Sheep, aka Chinska, aka Spoon {male} (b. unknown - d. unknown) 4. Clown Horse, aka Tasunke Heyoka {male} (b. Feb. 1842 - d. unknown) 5. Young Man Afraid of His Horses, aka Tasunke Kokipapi (b. 1830 or 1835 - d. 1893 or 1900) Married: 1871 to Hay Leg (b. 1853 – d. unknown), daughter of Henry Chatillion, aka Yellow White Man, and Bear Robe {female}. Known children: a) Frank Young Man Afraid of His Horses (b. 1888/1890 – d. unknown) Married: 1904 to Lucy Red Cloud (b. ca 1888 – d. unknown), daughter of Jack Red Cloud and Good Cloud. Known children: unknown 6. Talks Asleep {male} (b. 1850 – d. unknown)
2nd Married: 1856 to Medicine Woman (b. 1830 – d. unknown), daughter of unknown Known children: 1. Move {female} (b. 1856 - d. unknown) 2. White {female} (b. 1873 – d. unknown) 3. Used Up Arrows {male} (b. 1882 – d. unknown)
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Post by grigoryev on May 11, 2017 15:02:51 GMT -5
Hello. I decided to return to the beginning. So, here's the corrected for me distribution of Oglala 1804: The Oglala Tribe in generation 1800-1825. Population in 1804 reconstructed as 1000 people, 100 lodges. Breakdown as reconstructed for 1804, contains two maximal bands (oshpaye), comprising approximately five camps or sub-bands (wichoti) and fourteen tiyoshpaye (extended family clusters).
Maximal Band A. Oglala proper maximal band (oshpaye): approximately 600 people, 60 lodges in 1804.
1. Oglala-hca, True Oglala
• Wamnuha-owin (Cowrie Shell Earrings) Standing Bull family • Mahto (Bear tiyoshpaye), Sitting Bear family (leads to American Horse family) • Iya Shicha (Bad Talkers) • Iwayusota (Used Up by Begging), leads to Walks Underground, Black Bear families • Ite Shicha (Bad Face), Fast Whirlwind family, Brave Bear family
2. Tashnahecha-yuta, Ground Squirrel Eaters
• Tashnahecha-yuta (Ground Squirrel Eaters), Bad Wound family • Kiyuksa (Break in Middle), Stone Knife, White Swan families • Kiyuksa (sister band to above), Two Crows family
3. Hunkpatila, Camp at the Horn
• Tishayaote (Red Lodge band), Yellow Eagle family • Kapozhela, (Light-weight), Black Elk family • Hinhan Hupahu (Owl Wing tiyospaye), Ghost Boy family
Maximal Band B. Shiyo maximal band (oshpaye): approximately 400 people, 40 lodges in 1804.
1.Shiyo proper (to Brules, c. 1830+)
• Shiyo-tanka (Large Prairie Hen), • Homna (Smells of Fish) • Shiyo-suhula (Small Prairie Hen)
2.(Remain with Oglalas, c. 1830+)
• Shoulder family • Shell Man family • White Bull family
I still could not determine which sub-group belonged to the chief White Robe.
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