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Post by grigoryev on Feb 4, 2015 7:31:14 GMT -5
Hello. But how, then, the statement that the group Payabya was created Iron Nachet? Man afraid of his Horse mention how Kuhinyan initially. On the other hand in the distribution of 1835 as part of Payabya were representatives Shiyo - Shell Man and White Bull. Could a case be Payabya subgroup composed Shiyo? And Iron Hatchet made her independent group of Oglala, when another subgroup Shiyo - Shiyo Proper (Shiyo-tank, Homna, Shiyo-suhula) went to join the Sichangu?
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Post by grigoryev on Jan 28, 2015 5:58:37 GMT -5
About Bad Talkers Kingsley wrote: "Thus by c. 1804 - remember our baseline year! - we see three main extended families within True Oglala:
(a) Sitting Bear headman: Bad Talkers, also Mato Oyate (b) Bad Wound headman: Tashnahecha (c) Standing Bull headman"
Grant Bull said Mekeel that Hokayuta split off from Tacnaitca and divided between Ite Sica and Iya sica. According to new data turns out that Iya Sica and Mato Oyate together with Sitting Bear and his tiyoshpaye joined Bull Bear's people at Ft Laramie in 1835. Sitting Bear remained with them til 1859, then went back north. A Iya Sica remain with Southern oglalami (Kiyaksa)? The distribution does not reflect the group Iya Sica.
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Post by grigoryev on Jan 28, 2015 5:03:19 GMT -5
Hello. Question about tiyospaye Paint His Chin Red. After Paint His Chin Red death in 1838 at the hands of Skidi-Pawnee, mentioned his nephew Spotted Horse. Also, with this group of related families Little Dog-Big Brain-No Flash. It's all his nephews, or among these families have his sons?
Best regards, Grigoryev
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Post by grigoryev on Jan 17, 2015 14:48:29 GMT -5
Hello. As promised, provides information about the Red Cloud Agency. 43 Present at the June 12 [1871] council were: Red Cloud, Red Dog, Sword, Long Wolf, Man Afraid of His Horse (probably the elder), Quick Bear, Cold Face, Brave Bear, High Wolf, Sitting Bear, Red Plume, Little Cloud, Spider, Fire Thunder, Big Crow, Pretty Crow, Big Foot, Little Wound, Pumpkin Seed, Yellow Bear, Rocky Bear, Bad Wound, Bear Robe, Quick Eagle, Two Buffaloes, Corn Man, White Eyes, Milk, Spotted Horse, Red Leaf, Buffalo Sheds His Hair, and Red Buffalo." [Price, Chiefs, headmen, and warriors :, 1993, pg.110, n43]
My preliminary achievements. True Oglala xx lodges 1)Ite Sicha 80 lodges •Red Cloud 10 lodges •Spider •Brave Bear 10 lodges •Trunk/White Hawk 10 lodges •Smoke II, Peshla xx lodges •No Water II, Hoka Yuta xx lodges 2)Tapislecha: xx lodges •Black Hawk 40 lodges 1871 •Face 31 lodges •High Man 10 lodges •Yellow Bear II 2 lodges 3)Payabya 70 lodges 1872 •Old Man Afraid His Horse 10 lodges •High Wolf 10 lodges •Tongue xx lodges True Oglala •Sitting Bear 20 lodges •American Horse 10 lodges Oyuhpe •Red Dog •Two Bulls •Corn Man 5 lodges Wagluhe •Fire Thunder 5 lodges? •Blue Horse 36 lodges December 1871 •Spotted Cow 16 lodges •Spotted Horse 10 lodges Wazhazha •Red Leaf •Daylight Kiyaksa 1)Tasnahecha •Bad Wound 21 lodges • 2)Kuhinyan • 3)Kiyaksa Proper •Little Wound •Sitting Bull 21 lodges •Three Bears 9 lodges •Two Lance 13 lodges •Stabber, Wacheunpa xx lodges Hoka Yuta •Shedding Wolf xx lodges
Help me with information on the following leaders: Long Wolf, Quick Bear, Cold Faceб Red Plume, Little Cloud, Big Crow, Pretty Crow, Big Foot, Pumpkin Seed, Rocky Bear, Bear Robe, Quick Eagle, Two Buffaloes, White Eyes, Buffalo Sheds His Hair, and Red Buffalo.
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Post by grigoryev on Dec 25, 2014 16:02:03 GMT -5
Hello.
As for the question of the Red Water Oglala. The structure of the southern Oglala mentioned the following leaders of the Red Water:
• Red Water and sons • Tobacco • The Bear • Tall Bull
They all went to the Sans Arc and joined the ranks of the division Red Water proper? Or after their arrival in the composition of the maximum group of red water and formed a new band?
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Post by grigoryev on Dec 25, 2014 15:41:32 GMT -5
Hello Kingsley What changed the structure of the tribe minnekonzhu after 1840? From the disappeared:
Keze Shicha, Bad Barbs - to Sichangu after 1832
Separated in Oohenunpa 1. Wanonwakteninan 2. Oiglapta, Eat Everything Up, Four Bears family 3. Shunka-yuteshni, Eat No Dogs Long Mandan family 4. Nige tanka, Big Belly 5. Mawahkota
Out In to the Oglala Oyuhpe or Taku-hkpa-I • Oyuhpe • Cut Testicles • Wakan
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Post by grigoryev on Dec 25, 2014 15:31:47 GMT -5
Hello. As for Sihazapa - as I understand it, this is the most stable of all units Teton. Since all of the groups were mainly formed until the 19th century, and the excess population went to the other tribes Teton only in the form of individual families, rather than whole groups.
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Post by grigoryev on Dec 25, 2014 15:24:21 GMT -5
Hello Kingsley
As you mentioned above: As a tribal baseline during winter 1867-68, I propose 607 lodges, equivalent at this timeframe to approximately 3642 people. IN THE NORTH: 340 lodges NEAR FORT LARAMIE: 127 lodges AT NORTH PLATTE (UPPER PLATTE AGENCY): 20 lodges IN THE SOUTH: 120 lodges.
On the northern division of the Oglala clear. In addition Oyuhpe. But as for the rest ... More or less clear with the southern Oglala. Of those of you in the distribution of 1846 went to the northern Oglala (and Sans Arc): Red Water, True Oglala of Sitting Bear and No Water (Hoka Yuta) and most Skokpa (Tapislecha).
NEAR FORT LARAMIE - likely Loafers and possibly Wazhazha.
Still it will be interesting to see the picture in the post-war Red Cloud - to Little Big Horn. I'll try the other day to put his version of the Oglala distribution for this period.
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Post by grigoryev on Dec 9, 2014 6:09:31 GMT -5
Welcome Kingsley Thanks for the answers. And what can you tell about the division Wazaza? As described in Hyde, after the death of the Scattering Bear(Wazaza) some of them led by Stabber joined the Oglala. Then, we see that Wazaza euchastvuyut in the creation of other groups or join existing ones. For example, as you've already written above: "All the Porcupine Dist. Communities have some derivative relationship from the Wazhazha."
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Post by grigoryev on Dec 8, 2014 11:24:14 GMT -5
Hello 1. The distribution of the Oglala you indicated that Standing Bull headed one of tiyospaye Hunkpatila. At the same time in the distribution of 1867-1868, this unit is headed by Little Hawk, brother Worm. There is another statement on the Standing Bull III: «Standing Bull III was rated by Thaddeus Culbertson as an Oglala chief in 1850, aligned with an otherwise unreported band, the Night Cloud. Possibly this was a name for his sub-division of the Hunkpatila. He was a wakichunze or Decider in the main band. When the Bad Faces organized as a large, maximal band (in 1853?), Standing Bull shifted over to that band. Alex Adams noted him as one of four Bad Face Deciders in the 1850s – the others being Smoke, White Hawk, and Brave Bear (aka Shot in the Face). Smoke and Standing Bull would have been classificatory ‘brothers’ through the Parts of Body connection, Smoke being the elder by some years.» Could not it be interconnected - that is standing Bull moved to the community Ite Sica, his cousin Smoke, and the remaining group will be headed by Little Hawk (possibly through marital ties). At the same time, there is one reference: “His last namecheck is in Twiss’s September 1858 report bearing on annuity goods under the Treaty of 1851. Old Man Afraid of His Horse, Smoke, Standing Bull, and Yellow Eagle (Hunkpatila chief) signed a document requesting certain changes in the goods supplied. No further records known to me mention Standing Bull III.” Then maybe, after his death, probably about 1860, his group and lead Little Hawk.
2. Meetings in 1865, 1868 and 1875, when the smoke II creates his own group "bald head". In 1865, the remaining part of those who remained faithful followers of the leader of Smoke, Smoke II chosen as one of the current leaders (after the death of the Old Smoke in 1864). In 1868 Smoke II and his followers are amplified many people. In 1875, followers appoint Smoke II as a leader and a white bull as their leader. It formed a new group Pesla, not related to Ite Sica or shows split of Ite Sica on contractual and non-contractual, where Pesla are peaceful faction?
3. now about the fact that Iron Hatchet and Old Man Afraid of His Horse were the same person. And you did not try to consider who was the father of the Old Man Afraid? And do not try to check and not Iron Hatchet is the father of Old Man Afraid?
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Post by grigoryev on Dec 4, 2014 17:45:27 GMT -5
Thank Kingsley I came across information that Male Crow, Kangi block was somehow connected with Crazy Horse family. how true this is?
You found this information on Orphans: The Orphans band story is one that George Hyde got wrong. The story of the killing of Male Crow and his war party by Crows and Snakes, fall 1844, is the origin of the Orphan band among the Oglalas. Survivors' families formed a band which ultimately (after 1880) settled on Pine Ridge at the site of the Wounded Knee Massacre. In the period 1845-75 it was a small sub-band of the Southern or Kiyaksa Oglala division, hunting south of the Platte River.
So I correctly guessed that it was one of the band Kiyaksa?
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Post by grigoryev on Dec 4, 2014 17:31:47 GMT -5
Thanks for the answers
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Post by grigoryev on Dec 4, 2014 17:31:16 GMT -5
Another question. In the subject of Metal Hair Ornaments Band (Mazpegnake) found the following: The latter is another relative of the Brown Thunders. Born ca. 1850 he was one of three sons of Charging Hawk, a brother of Brown Thunder I. Thunder Elk's full brother was First Eagle, who married Lame Deer's daughter (Miniconjou, Wakpokiyan band) and is noted in the CENSUS as living in Fool Heart's band. His half-brother (by a different mother) was Beautiful Bald Eagle. This whole family traced their origins back to a man named Builds Fire, who was probably born about 1795. He was the father of Charging Hawk, Brown Thunder I, Cane Woman, and others. He (and several of his descendants, specifically Charging Hawk and Beautiful Bald Eagle) were identified with the Ashke (Lock of Hair) band, an ancient Miniconjou band that had effectively split up by the period under consideration. Key families had become identified with the Sans Arcs Metal Hair Ornaments band. It looks to me that another cluster of families in the Sans Arc CENSUS list, centring on the sequence No's 268-282, correspond to the Metal Hair Ornaments.
It turns out that this group could be formed from mixed marriages between Sans Arc and Ashke? And maybe some of Ashke not shifted to the brulee and a Sans Arc in the early 1800s?
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Post by grigoryev on Dec 4, 2014 16:50:43 GMT -5
Hello dear Kingsley. Thank you for the link. cognitive information. You mentioned somewhere that the name of the group Wablenica happened after the incident with the death of Whirlwind's son white bull. What's the band took the name - Whirlwind family or other band? Was a man - TWO LANCE Wahukeza Nunpa (c1829-1901). Oglala: Group Wablenica, also known as the United People, Oyate Okiyupi. Two Lance was the brother of Whistler, the leader Kiyaksa band, who was killed by white hunters in November 1872. So Vablenika - Little Bull family?
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Post by grigoryev on Dec 4, 2014 16:25:08 GMT -5
Hello. Decided to revive this little branch. There are several issues.
How to Drive a respected Kingsley, the typical size of the gangs was 8-15 lodges.
Hayden, ca. 1857, tabulated two Sans Arc bands, the Minisa, rated at 80 lodges and led by Crazy Heart; and the Plenty Horses (not subsequently noted), 75 lodges, led by Crow Feather. The Minisa were more identified with the eastern end of the Sans Arc range, within the mainstem Missouri valley; while the nickname Plenty Horses indicates a more westerly distribution, with access to the horse trade region south and west of the Black Hills. This band therefore had closer links, through Upper Miniconjou relatives, to Southern Teton trade partners.
During the period 1850-80 up to eight bands made up the Sans Arc tribe (chiefs as period 1865-80):
1. Itazipco-hca, Sans Arc Proper 2. Minisa, Red Water (Black Hawk?) 3. Sina-luta-oin, Red Cloth Ear-ring (Black Eagle) 4. Woluta-yuta, Ham Eaters (Blue Coat) 5. Mazpegnake, Metal Hair Ornaments (Brown Thunder) 6. Tatanka-cesli, Bull Dung (Spotted Eagle, Red Bear, Looks Up) 7. Siksicela, Bad Ones (Elk Head, Martin Charger) 8. Tiyopa-ocannumpa, Pipe at Door
Thus based on the number of stalls that receive each of the two divisions was about 4 band. That in principle the same as the list of ghosts above, wherein said 8 band. You can not tell how they were distributed in two divisions?
The second question. It seems I met at Hyde mention that the name Sans Arc awarded in 1863 (the case with uikte, which proposed to postpone the soldiers and weapons at this moment attacked by enemies). How true this is? Prior to this incident, the original name for the Sans Arc was Minissha? If this is true, whether the incident was in 1863 and not earlier?
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