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Post by jeroen on Jun 24, 2009 4:04:52 GMT -5
Hey Dietmar, I am looking forward to the Geronimo book that Utley is working on, hopefully he'll get some new info... until then Angie Debo's Geronimo stands out, so excellent choice! Meanwhile, I am working on the identification of all the Apaches in the train photo, I'll post my suggestions within a few days... I love the new pic, have not seen it before, I would say these are Western Apaches rather than Chiricahuas... but I must agree that he really looks a lot like Geronimo...
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Post by jeroen on Jun 24, 2009 3:53:53 GMT -5
Hey Charlie, Had very little time to check my files, but this is what I have come up with so far: The proper Kiowa spelling of his name is actually Tsau lau te, meaning either Gray Goose or Cry of the wild goose, he was born around 1850 to Satanta and his mother was Zone ty, Satanta's eldest wife. It is not known he was the eldest son, he probably had another brother and at least three sisters, but Tsau lau te was undoubtedly Satanta's favorite son whom he groomed to be his successor. He also was known as one of the best shots among the Kiowa. Custer said he won a contest with Tsau lau te, but the story is doubtful. Involved in a romantic affair with the wife of another warrior, he got himself seriously wounded, but he fully recovered and when the Kiowa finally settled at the Fort Sill reservation he, like many others, became an army scout under captain Hugh Scott. He did have a daughter who passed the name Satanta down to her own son. I also read that Tsau lau te was a member of a Kiowa war party that went out to avenge the death of a Kiowa warrior in 1879. (four years after the Kiowa settled at Fort Sill!) When I have more, I'll post it here...
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Post by jeroen on Jun 23, 2009 3:57:52 GMT -5
I came across this picture of Naiche, had not seen it before and don't know where and when it was taken, nor by whom. Perhaps we should start a new thread on Naiche. In my opinion his role and position has long been underrated. In addition, as a son of Cochise and a grandson of Mangas Coloradas, plus his relations by blood and marriage to many other important Chiricahuas, he deserves a biography written by a prominent historian. Also, looking forward to any other unusual Naiche photographs...
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Post by jeroen on Jun 19, 2009 6:36:29 GMT -5
I also got a few more... This one was taken during the inaugural parade of president Teddy Roosevelt.
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Post by jeroen on Jun 19, 2009 6:29:39 GMT -5
Finally got alarger picture of Naiche in the second council picture... I still think the man sitting behind Geronimo's left is Conception rather than Cayetano... Geronimo specifically asked Conception to be his translator so it makes sense he is sitting close by. Crook agreed but said he wanted the other translators to check all that was said... I also wonder who the two warriors in the back are and why they are not in the first picture. Geronimo is obviously sitting in front of two others, they seem like warriors, perhaps Kayatennae, or the other two translators present... Also, I agree with Low Dog that the warrior often identified as Fun is not him, and I doubt it is Tsisnah either, but rather Johlsanny. Sometimes the names Johlsanny and Ulzana are getting mixed up, but Johlsanny was a son of Ulzana, an older brother of Chihuahua and the leader of the famous November 1885 raid, in which Johlsanny also rode... Charlie, I really think the two pictures of our unidentified white warrior show one and the man, the features (particularly the mouth) look much alike. The whole council lasted three days, although Geronimo and Crook only met on the 25th and the 27th... My guess is that Fly took the council photos on the 25th and went to the Apache camp in the following days, which may well explain why several Apaches actually wear different clothes (see our mysterious friedn, Naiche, Fun etc) Really love the new pics Grahame, especially the second one is new to me...
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Post by jeroen on Jun 19, 2009 6:08:46 GMT -5
Another nice image of Red Cloud, had seen it before in Fielder's Sioux Indian Leaders, but the photos in that book are of extremely poor quality...
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Post by jeroen on Jun 16, 2009 4:18:24 GMT -5
Yes, that is the warrior we are taliking about... Could this be the same man as the one in this photo with the sash? The one in the center is Naiche and Fun is beside him... Charlie, I agree it is extremely difficult to correctly identify all the Apaches in the Fly photos, but do you mean that the man between Nana and Geronimo in the council photo is Chihuahua? I thought this was Conception, one of the translators... Here's is his portrait taken in Washington later that year... By the way, have you noticed that there are actually two council photos that are almost identical? Compare this one with the one posted by Dietmar in the Taza thread, Naiche is visible in this one (extreme left, behind soldiers) and there are two more warriors standing in the background (behind Geronimo)... only Crook doesn't seem to have moved at all...
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Post by jeroen on Jun 11, 2009 7:17:38 GMT -5
Hello Charlie and Dietmar, Yanozha is kneeling in the background (second from left), which is more obvious in this alternate Fly photo of the same group... Also, I doubt that the warrior with the war cap is Laziyah, but rather Chihuahua, however I agree that the warrior with the dark coat is in fact Fun, though Tsisnah looked a lot like him (they were closely related). Like Charlie I have been wondering who the tall guy in white is. Probably he was in of the Chihuahua/Ulzana band that did surrender after the March 1886 talks.
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Post by jeroen on Jun 10, 2009 5:24:48 GMT -5
another Fiske photo, likely taken on the same occasion as the one with his daughter...
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Post by jeroen on Jun 10, 2009 3:51:59 GMT -5
and this is a nice one too...
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Post by jeroen on Jun 10, 2009 3:49:00 GMT -5
Yes Jinlian, those are the photographs I am referring to, in both the delegation pictures and the individual portraits I did not find Taza. And because he was the most prominent delegation member, he would certainly have been included. So I guess the photographs were taken while Taza was in the hospital or after he had died. I agree the woman often identified in the famous train photograph as Lozen, is probably not her, but is indeed Bi-ya-ne-ta. Even though general Stanley who made a list of the Apache prisoners, failed to mention her, Lozen almost certainly was among them. The officer identified only a few of the women. And Kanseah, who was certainly present, stated Lozen was with Geronimo and Naiche until the very end. Here is a photograph of Apaches in Mount Vernon. The woman in the center (left) is said to be Lozen, but of course, nobody knows for certain... As for the Victorio identification, James Kaywaykla, who as a boy lived with Victorio and his people, confirmed that the picture really shows Victorio to mrs. Eve Ball. He could be mistaken of course, but in many other facts he proved to be quite reliable. Perhaps Victorio's descendants can tell more about it...
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Taza
Jun 9, 2009 1:00:53 GMT -5
Post by jeroen on Jun 9, 2009 1:00:53 GMT -5
I guess , haven't found one yet... The Apache delegation to Washington was photographed more than once, but have not identified Taza among them... perhaps these pictures were taken after Taza died.
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Post by jeroen on Jun 9, 2009 0:57:34 GMT -5
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Taza
Jun 8, 2009 15:13:32 GMT -5
Post by jeroen on Jun 8, 2009 15:13:32 GMT -5
It is the one with the hat and army coat between Maus and Nana... This Apache is sometimes identified as Alchisay, but my guess it is Noche...
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Taza
Jun 8, 2009 13:07:59 GMT -5
Post by jeroen on Jun 8, 2009 13:07:59 GMT -5
Right, I guess the inscription is also the source for the confusion, Notshi looks a lot like Naiche, however this guy does not look like Naiche, so perhaps someone figured him to be the older brother. And the mistake has persisted ever since...
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