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Post by Second on Jul 15, 2013 20:03:57 GMT -5
Hello everyone! I am in need of help in identifying Jolsanny's FIRST wife Nes-chila and her family history and or photographs. More specifically her sister or sisters. If anyone can come up with their names,history and/or photographs of these ladies, it would be greatly appreciated. Sincerely, Second
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Post by Second on Jul 11, 2013 21:41:50 GMT -5
Thanks Cinemo, I never knew the reason for Massai's escape. Many stories have been written about the man. Hollywood made a movie with Burt Landcaster about the great escape. The Chiricahua National Monument Park in AZ named the highest mountain peak in his honor. Massai made his way back home to Ojo Caliente. He later captured Zan-a-go-li-cheher, a Mescalero girl from her reservation. After being shot at Ojo Caliente, his wife and children made it back to Mescalero. His descendants are alive and well. Some are singers with the Warm Springs Crown Dance group.
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Post by Second on May 13, 2013 20:28:55 GMT -5
Massai was a Warm Springs Apache. His escape was well known. They even made a movie about him with Burt Lancaster, I believe. After escaping from the train he returned to Ojo Caliente. He remained there for 25 yrs. During those years he married a Mescalero woman, and the had four children. In 1911, he was shot and presumed killed while approaching a horse at the Warm Springs Agency. Soon after the incident, the wife and children returned to Mescalero. Some of his descendants are singers among the Warm Springs Crown Dance group. The highest Mountain peak (Massai's Peak) at the Chiricahua National Park in Arizona is named after this great warrior.
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Post by Second on May 12, 2013 21:38:56 GMT -5
The reason (in my opinion) that so much has been written about Geronimo, the myth and so little about Geronimo the man, is because its easy to write fiction. Most writers that lived when Geronimo was alive (for whatever reason), never took the time to approach the man or his relatives in order to get a good insight of their subject. Instead they copied whatever the military records showed and added glamorous statements along the way.
I have interviewed subjects that have told me that something as simple as the day they were born, was later changed and or glamorized to Mr. so and so was born on such date, under a beautiful blue sky full of Eagles. These books are not only easy/captivating to read but they may have created the myth that Geronimo has become. Modern writers continue to do the same and for some reason refuse to learn about Geronimo the man by simply interviewing his descendants living in Mescalero. Perhaps they were turned down by his relatives, or what they learned was not in favor of a good selling book. One thing is clear, not all Apaches are in favor of Geronimo's ways and Geronimo did not participate in a lot of the events he was blamed or credited for. Jason Betzinez, I fought with Geronimo may be the only book that gives an insight of the man. Again, Geronimo was a prisoner during this interview, and may have been hesitant or cautious when giving statements. Anything written by Eve Ball about Geronimo may be as close as we will ever get to know Geronimo the man. Second
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Post by Second on Apr 10, 2013 22:50:47 GMT -5
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Post by Second on Apr 10, 2013 0:34:33 GMT -5
My next topic has to do with Lostson's comment "That's quite a story. I'm still trying to find out how g-g-g-grandpa the chief wound up on our family's mountain in Corley,WVA a little over 100 years ago." I am not sure if Lostson is talking about my G G Grandpa showing up in WVA, or simply responding to another topic. I will like to include for the record, that Apaches, even while held as prisoners of war, made their way around the country and abroad. While being held in Fort Sill, some went to Cuba to fight for that country's independence from Spain. Later some went to NC and NM as they looked for a suitable home for their anticipated release in 1913. Read more: amertribes.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=apachegeneral&thread=1385&page=1#ixzz2Q2EpaCvP
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Post by Second on Apr 9, 2013 23:42:03 GMT -5
I will like to thank Jasper for taking the time to compliment and express his feelings about my book. It means a lot to me to hear that he was able to relate to some of the sacred places mentioned and further connect with the stories to the point of actually felling as part of my family.
As we all may know it is impossible to please everyone. Having said that, I am sorry that Pullingup was not able to feel the same. That will always be the result when someone is doing something and expecting something in return. Based on his comments, it appears that Pullingup glanced at the book looking for "evidence." He mentioned that Siggy Jumper wrote a book and so did Alex Haley, thus coming across that any body can write a book. This is true, I have actually met writers who are mentioned in this forum as credible, and yet they had never met an Apache prior to the publishing of their material. In one particular case, I was shocked to learned that I was the first Apache they had met as they handed me a signed copy of their book. Apparently these 'copy and paste' books provide plenty of evidence for most readers, since the content comes from military records and or various sources of non Indians, 'who only spoke the truth.' Look at the reference index in some of these books and you will find that almost a quarter of the total number of pages comes from someone else s hard work. I was able to list my references on a single page.
Next, Pullingup mentions the photographic evidence of Geronimo standing in Fort Marion as a hoax. It appalled me how he failed to mentioned that Siggy Jumper's book has an Introduction, just like any other book. Clearly stated there, he would have learned that Siggy's book is about tales from the Chiricahua Apaches. Those stories were written word for word as told to him by dozens of Chiricahuas, just the way they would want their great grandchildren to hear them. Each participant was handed down on paper their stories as I thought I heard them. They had the opportunity prior to publishing to add, delete or remove any part of their stories. So what your reading is what THEY want to preserve for future Apache generations, long after they are gone.
The Geronimo photograph mentioned by Pullingup, is just another tale. It was written the way it was told to me. I even left it up to the reader to decide if it was Geromino or not, but Pullingup forgot to mention that. Perhaps while looking for evidence, he failed to see the value of the picture and the rest of the photo collection from Cleve Powell. It was Cleve's trust in me to write the story as it was passed on to him from his family that allowed me to copy right the entire collection. As a result, Siggy's book brought those precious and rare captured moments to light for the first time ever, thus allowing some readers to enjoy and appreciate them, while others were too busy looking for evidence.
Last but not least, I am sorry again to Pullingup for not proving the solid evidence he was looking for that would connect me to an Apache prisoner of war ancestry. Perhaps he would have learned how it all happened, had he read my book, but unfortunately he only looked at it.
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Post by Second on Apr 5, 2013 21:15:24 GMT -5
Hello Tiswin! As an Apache, I respect all the members on this site. Even thou most of the them are not Natives and or Americans, they have taught me so much about my own culture. I never questioned how they became full members, experts, etc, but I knew it was not by the amount of photographs they owned. This site is about sharing knowledge and creating topics to broadened out horizons. Stay humble my friend and you will get a lot further in life.
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Post by Second on Apr 5, 2013 20:30:06 GMT -5
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Post by Second on Apr 5, 2013 20:01:20 GMT -5
Thanks for posting the photo of the Crown Dancers led by David Fatty. I never knew what he looked like. I learned from the elders that our group came from him. The Fatty's passed the group to Eugene Chihuaha. After his death in 1965, the group was passed on to Milford Yuzos and later to James Kunestsis. The group is now being led by Eugene Chihuahua's great grandson. There are many groups of Crown Dancers in Mescelero, the one mentioned is the Chiricahua group. Read more: amertribes.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=chiricahua&thread=1630&page=1#ixzz2PdmIZuVn
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Post by Second on Jun 16, 2011 13:04:00 GMT -5
I have Jose Second as being born in 1850
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Post by Second on Jun 16, 2011 12:57:47 GMT -5
Jose Second and Jose First were both captured by Mexicans. They spent many years in captivity and they both escaped together. It is believed that they both made it to Cochise's band. Later, Jose First became a Scout under Chatto and Jose Second joined Naiche's band in the 1884 outbreak. Because Naiche and Geronimo were always together, makes me wonder if Jose Second was part of Geronimos band. I have never seen any pictures or text indicating such. At the end Jose Second joined Chihuahua and surrendered with Chihuahua's group.
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Post by Second on Jun 13, 2011 18:00:51 GMT -5
Thanks Naiches 2. My personal definition of an Apache Scout is one who joined or joins the “enemy” (opposing team) to go against his own people, a disgraceful act similar to a traitor or a spy. I don’t think my definition applies to those that joined the “I” 12 Infantry and or the Indian Police. I have seen Geronimo, Naiche and many other members from Geronimo’s group described as Scouts. I am aware that a lot of the members from “I” 12 Infantry were old Scouts such as Chatto and Toclanny.
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Post by Second on Jun 13, 2011 13:24:41 GMT -5
Hello everyone as may know my book Second Jumper: Searching for his Bloodline was published in May of this year. I want to thank some of you for buying it, and most of all for your positive feedback. The book has been endorsed by the Seminole Tribe and called a Master Piece by the Chiricahuas of Mescalero featured in my book. I have recvd a lot of feedback from various readers overseas in reference to the Apache Scouts. I am now intrigued by this subject and wanted to ask you guys with some personal questions. I noticed that PEnjady, stated that Atelnietze was still roaming free with his group in 1896 when they were ambushed by Scouts and Soldiers. I was under the impression that the era of the Scouts came to an end in 1886 when General Nelson Miles did away with them and send all Scouts except the Chiricahuas back to their reservations. I have also seen documents in Mescalero where my grandpa Jose Second was listed as serving the US Army as a Scout. Can someone tell me when he served? To my knowledge he was never a Scout, unlike Jose First who served under Chatto. I have also seen just about every Chiricahua Apache name listed as a Scout, from Geronimo to Naiche, etc. Are they referring to the time when most Chiricahuas served in Comp “I” 12 Infantry while in prison, as being Scouts?
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Post by Second on Apr 19, 2011 8:25:04 GMT -5
The topic has been killing me. I wish I was in liberty to say more. As of 2001, The Chiricahuas of Sierra Madre are alive and well.
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