new apache books

[jeroen]

A friend sent me info about two new books that are due to come out next year:
The wrath of Cochise
Let's hope it will include new info in addition to Sweeney's standard book about Cochise
and perhaps even more interesting:
From Fort Marion to Fort Sill
Amazon gives the following intro:
From 1886 to 1913, hundreds of Chiricahua Apache men, women, and children lived and died as prisoners of war in Florida, Alabama, and Oklahoma. Their names, faces, and lives have long been forgotten by history, and for nearly one hundred years these individuals have been nothing more than statistics in the history of the United States’ tumultuous war against the Chiricahua Apache.

Based on extensive archival research, From Fort Marion to Fort Sill offers long-overdue documentation of the lives and fate of many of these people. This outstanding reference work provides individual biographies for hundreds of the Chiricahua Apache prisoners of war, including those originally classified as POWs in 1886, infants who lived only a few days, children removed from families and sent to Indian boarding schools, and second-generation POWs who lived well into the twenty-first century. Their biographies are often poignant and revealing, and more than sixty previously unpublished photographs give a further glimpse of their humanity.

This masterful documentary work, based on the unpublished research notes of former Fort Sill historian Gillett Griswold, at last brings to light the lives and experiences of hundreds of Chiricahua Apaches whose story has gone untold for too long.

I also received Robert Utley's new biography on Geronimo about a week ago. Well written, as might be expected from this great historian, but so far, very little new info. It relies heavily on Sweeney, as far as I can judge. I am about half way through by now.
Also, Sweeney is working on a new book, again on Cochise. Does anybody know more about this?

[coeurrouge]

the fort marion to Fort Sill intereste me, will see on june 2013, after one century without chain on ankles for the Chiricahuas.

Jeroen, Did Utley work deeply (making a junction between Mexican or American reports and what Geronimo said)on the life of Geronimo before 1870 or 1860?
Debo base this period only on what Geronimo said.
I do not know if I am understandable, I am tired, sorry.

[jeroen]

I have not finished the book yet, but so far, I think Utley based his story pretty much on the research done by Sweeney and he readily admits so much in his foreword. This also goes for the 1860-70 period. Like in most books, there are the inevitable errors with identifications in the photographs (mix up of Fun-Tsisnah, who is even said to be one of Geronimo's sons...) and I don't agree with all his assumptions and conclusions, but Utley does he great job in portraying Geronimo as a real person...

My Italian friend Paolo emailed me and said the new Sweeney manuscript, about Cochise, his interviews and much previously unpublished material, will probably be titled Cochise Talks, and is now being reviewed by Oklahoma Press. If approved, it will be published in the fall of 2013. Thanks Paolo!

[kayitah]

Interesting topic...

I have started reading Utley's "Geronimo", but I must say it has, at least so far, not really amazed me. It's not necessarily Utley's fault (since I think he's a very good scholar), it's much more because Sweeney has come up with an abundance of details on individuals in his last book (From Cochise to Geronimo), and I somewhat expected Utley to bring even more light into the dark.

The Geronimo Campaign and Geronimo's life has been rehashed countless times and, with very few exceptions, nothing new has been included in those books.

Sweeney must have spent a lot of time researching in archives, while I have the impression that not many other writers do that as well. I can fully understand when someone doesn't do it because he CAN'T do it, like european scholars for example.

[jeroen]

I finally got around reading The Wrath of Cochise, a just released book by Terry Mort. In my opinion it is not the best book on Cochise, it adds nothing new, except the author's opinion which I do not share in most instances. To me it is yet another typical American historian's book with a limited understanding of Cochise and Chiricahua culture. Also, fully half of the book does not deal with what you would expect from the title. There is, for instance, a large section on West Point to show how Bascom was formed and trained. Also a chapter about the Chiricahua but a strong emphasis on raiding. A casual reader would get the impression that the Apaches were little more than raiders, killers and thieves. The best thing going for the book is that it makes for easy reading... It can't compare with Sweeney's work on Cochise in any way, but that is just my opinion... Anybody else read the book yet?

[dT]

"The Geronimo Campaign and Geronimo's life has been rehashed countless times and, with very few exceptions, nothing new has been included in those books."

In an effort to get a better understanding of who Geronimo actually was - as opposed to many opinions that keep being repeated - I decided to go back and read through the very few books written by people who had actually met Geronimo in person. This includes Nde and Nd'aa authors.

The most surprising thing I have found is that none of these original authors ever stops to describe the most basic things about Geronimo. What did he look like? How did he talk (his mannerisms)? What was his physical appearance? What impression did he give you? There are a few oblique descriptions of these things., But honestly - you would think that the people who really met Geronimo would have sat down and simply described the man. The most notable thing is how absent these descriptions actually are.

dT

[pullingup]

Very few people see Geronimo the person rather than Geronimo the image. Any discussions about Apaches are easily converted into discussions about Geronimo simply by mentioning the name. To Indaa eyes, Geronimo is a bright light and they are the moths.

Regarding the book based on the Gilette Griswold document, the tribes had been trying to avoid that information being made easily accessible due to the proliferation of fake tribes and of individuals making false or mistaken claims of being Chiricahua. I suppose the unpublished information was too tempting a target to be left alone.

[dT]

"To Indaa eyes, Geronimo is a bright light and they are the moths."

That could well be true.
Geronimo has come to be a symbol of resistance of an individual (or small group) against a much larger oppressor. That is probably the attraction.

I was hoping simply to understand better why Geronimo persisted with his escapes from the reservation. What was he hoping to accomplish by this? It is possible the question has a deep answer, but it also possible Geronimo's motives were strictly personal and stemmed from resentment (at being confined and the rules imposed on him) and a desire to live the old life. Either explanation is plausible. It does appear from the few eye witness accounts that not many Chiricahua's supported Geronimo at the time of his final escapes from captivity. But there could be many explanations for why that was true. It does seem that many people today attach more meaning to Geronimo's actions than what might have actually existed. But who knows?

It is regrettable that someone did not talk to Geronimo and get his actual opinion about things - during the early 1880's when all this stuff was going on. It would have been helpful if it was recorded.

I still cannot tell whether if Geronimo was alive today and I met him .... would I like this person or not? It is hard to say.

dT

[naiches2]

Dt, superbly written! I agree with everything you said to the last word.
Geronimo is just a symbol now, but he was a living man, very hard man and very strong, like a mountains and rocks.
People who talked about Geronimo very often two different things for political reasons, often in pursuit of their goals. Both white and Indians.

[dT]

Geronimo has become a symbol of the "untamed spirit" of the human race.
As several people - incl. PullingUp and Naiches2 - have observed ... it is quite difficult to separate the man from his image. In fact, even when you read the old books from the last century it seems that the people who met Geronimo could not separate him from his image. Perhaps that's why they did not simply write a description of him.

One thing I can observe about Geronimo. He was incredibly strong. His physical endurance was just unbelievable. If you read through the book by Jason Betzinez (I Fought With Geronimo) you will discover that Geronimo's band of Chiricahua's was running 70 miles each day. This was when Geronimo was young and was in his prime - his best days for raiding. They were running on foot through the hills and plains. And they must have been carrying some basic items such as water and weapons. And they were repeating this day after day. It's just an unbelievable feat of endurance. I still cannot work out how they could even accomplish this - how did their bodies handle the dehydration and loss of salt?

For a long time I could not understand why it was even necessary for Geronimo to surrender at all. Since his band of Chiricahua's knew the Sierra Madre mountains very well, and they were so strong, why could they not find refuge there? But if you read the book by Davis (The Truth About Geronimo - which incidentally is not a book telling the truth about Geronimo :-) ), you will find that a handful of US Cavalry men became obsessed with catching Geronimo. And in order to do that they pushed their bodies to extreme and dangerous levels of exhaustion - often travelling on foot just like the Chiricahua's . So in the end they made sure that Geronimo just did not get any rest. They continued to pursue him, even in difficult terrain. But on a good day Davis was only able to make 40 miles a day - which is roughly half of what Geronimo could do (on foot) when he was the same age as Davis!! So eventually Geronimo just became tired of being chased in the Sierra Madre. But you have to realize that at that time Geronimo was in his mid-50's. So at the time of Geronimo's final surrender - here is a Chiricahua in his 50's being pursued by young Army officers who were half his age ... and still Geronimo managed to avoid them and stay ahead. And finally gave up because he realized that he could not get enough food and ammo if they kept chasing him this way. So it is just amazing strength and endurance on Geronimo's part.

So when it comes to physical endurance - the old-time Chiricahua warriors would just leave everybody in the dust. They were in a league of their own :-)
dT

[pullingup]

The ones who had gone to mexico came in, not because they were were militarily forced to, but because their family members were being held hostage, and because they were gullable/hopeful enough to think that high level officials would not lie to them about the arrangements.

[dT]

pullingup - thank you. that helps me to understand what happened.

by the way - the situation must be looked at with clear judgment. After reading the book by Davis, it appears that the single biggest problem for Geronimo and his friends was alcohol. They had a long-term habit of going on drinking binges and really wiping themselves out. A big part of the attraction from Mexico seems to be have been the easy availability of mescal for the Chiricahua warriors. Their habit of going on "drunks" for several days really hurt their judgment ... when they needed clear thinking the most. I am not making any particular comments against Nde people or Chiricahuas. I have known plenty of other people over the years who were "party hardy" personalities, and loved to drink, dance, and wipe themselves out. But it seems that many of the old-time Chiricahua's had this habit, and it hurt them really badly when they needed to make important decisions about strategy.

These comments don't excuse the treachery of Crook, Miles and the powers in Washington for what they did to the Chiricahuas. It's not clear to me how much Crook was responsible for the shipping of the tribe to Florida. But clearly Miles, Sheridan, and others in Washington planned the whole deception and were responsible for the betrayal.

I am still not clear what happened to the younger Mangus and a small group of Nde followers who remained in the Sierra Madre and did not surrender with Geronimo. They appeared to be living quietly and so Crook decided not to pursue them - hence they remained free. Therefore, some Chirichua's might have lived in the mountains of Mexico and never were sent to Florida. Perhaps Bigfoot Massai eventually joined up with these people.

all the best,
dT

[cinemo]

Hi dt,

Mangus and his small band was captured on October 18, in 1886. There was no resistance.
Mangus was deported to Florida, later to Alabama. In 1894 he came to Fort Sill, there he died in 1901.

Interestingly, while the train journey to Florida, Mangus made an attempt to escape, but was directly recaptured. This occured near Pueblo, Colorado.

cinemo

[dT]

cinema

I am very sorry to hear that about Mangus.
like so many other things ... the outcome was very unfair.

to tell you the truth - the final Chiricahua's who were still in "the wild" gave too much credit to their enemies. People like Davis (US Cavalry) did cross the Sierra Madre - but it was a mighty effort for them. The US Cavalry could not repeat this kind of expedition very much. The Nde seemed to assume that if the US Cavalry had found their hiding places in the mountains then it was all over. The truth is - it wasn't. With persistence I think many could have hidden and lasted a long time. But maybe it is just like "PullingUp" said - they had relatives and family on the reservation and could not stand to be separated from them forever. And the people in Washington DC lied - a LOT.

Too bad about Mangus.
Bigfoot Massai was never caught, though.
There must have been a few others like him.

dT

[Second]

The reason (in my opinion) that so much has been written about Geronimo, the myth and so little about Geronimo the man, is because its easy to write fiction. Most writers that lived when Geronimo was alive (for whatever reason), never took the time to approach the man or his relatives in order to get a good insight of their subject. Instead they copied whatever the military records showed and added glamorous statements along the way.

I have interviewed subjects that have told me that something as simple as the day they were born, was later changed and or glamorized to Mr. so and so was born on such date, under a beautiful blue sky full of Eagles. These books are not only easy/captivating to read but they may have created the myth that Geronimo has become. Modern writers continue to do the same and for some reason refuse to learn about Geronimo the man by simply interviewing his descendants living in Mescalero. Perhaps they were turned down by his relatives, or what they learned was not
in favor of a good selling book. One thing is clear, not all Apaches are in favor of Geronimo's ways and Geronimo did not participate in a lot of the events he was blamed or credited for.
Jason Betzinez, I fought with Geronimo may be the only book that gives an insight of the man. Again, Geronimo was a prisoner during this interview, and may have been hesitant or cautious when giving statements.
Anything written by Eve Ball about Geronimo may be as close as we will ever get to know Geronimo the man.
Second