xframe
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by xframe on Mar 31, 2011 16:52:43 GMT -5
andersenthank you for your post and welcome to this board. I'm also kinda new here, but Jeroen, Kayitah and others are real experts. Anyway I did read the english version of the book you mention above and just finished it two weeks ago. Naiches2 also here from the board was so kind to send me a pdf file of it. This book was a great read and if you could post pictures on here it would be awesome, because I couldn't see them in the pdf!! I can't really describe, but to read every word about the old Yahnozha and the things he told Ingstard 1937 about the time when he roamed the Sierra Madre with Geronimo was absolutely fascinating for me. I share with kayitah the wishful thinking that the hidden people may have lived a kinda old lifestyle, but after reading this book I was even more sad. It killed the illusion. If there were a couple of Apaches left and roaming the Sierra Madre the early 20 century they really lived a very poor & dangerous life with nearly nothing. Always in fear to be hunt down and being killed. But nevertheless I really can recommend this book for all of you who didn't know it. As I said just the parts about Yahnozha are amazing! Is Yanozha said something of his family on the time of Geronimo's War? It is wrote that when he surrended in 1886, he hed a wife of 20 years old. I am quite sure she was not Iskada (related to Loco whom Yanozha married). So who was she? He might have said something, but unfortunately I can't remember on that one to be honest. He was asked by Ingstard about what the band did when they were hiding in the Sierra Madre, or how they did tread captured white women. And he asked about the fights they had with the Mexicans. Also how he felt when he came to the mexican city/area he once raided...etc. Does anybody know if Yahnozha has descendants who might be still alive? There was no info given in Ingstard's book, as far as I remember it. |
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Post by penjady on Mar 31, 2011 19:07:43 GMT -5
Is Yanozha said something of his family on the time of Geronimo's War? It is wrote that when he surrended in 1886, he hed a wife of 20 years old. I am quite sure she was not Iskada (related to Loco whom Yanozha married). So who was she? He might have said something, but unfortunately I can't remember on that one to be honest. He was asked by Ingstard about what the band did when they were hiding in the Sierra Madre, or how they did tread captured white women. And he asked about the fights they had with the Mexicans. Also how he felt when he came to the mexican city/area he once raided...etc. Does anybody know if Yahnozha has descendants who might be still alive? There was no info given in Ingstard's book, as far as I remember it. Yahnozha has descendants in Mescalero thru his daughter. Great Granddaughters. |
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xframe
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by xframe on Apr 1, 2011 1:19:18 GMT -5
penjadyThank you very much for this information and welcome to the board!! 
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Post by bobby on Apr 1, 2011 11:48:03 GMT -5
I found these videos:
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xframe
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by xframe on Apr 1, 2011 15:17:35 GMT -5
wow great links. Watched them already, thanks so much bobby |
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Post by kayitah on Apr 1, 2011 16:30:20 GMT -5
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Post by naiches2 on Apr 2, 2011 21:04:42 GMT -5
Exept... from Neil Goodwin:
"Captive Children" is a longer version of one of the chapters in my book The Apache Diaries. It appears in part 4 of that book following the conclusion of Grennie's Mexico diaries and begins to tell the story of my own search for survivors and captive children of the Sierra Madre Apaches.
Some background on these people is necessary to understand references in this chapter. The Sierra Madre Apaches were a people thought by most Americans to exist no longer. They were the last of the free-roaming Apaches, living in the traditional way--hunting, gathering, and raiding as they had for hundreds of years. With the surrender of Geronimo in 1886, all of the Apache bands were supposed to have been accounted for--either settled on reservations or, as were Geronimo and all the Chiricahua Apaches, in the custody of the U.S. Army as prisoners of war, permanently exiled from their homelands in New Mexico, Arizona, and Mexico. Only a few people knew there were Apaches who had never surrendered. Numbering perhaps as many as one hundred in the 1890s, they were made up of four groups. The most numerous were the Ndendaa'i Chiricahuas, the southernmost of the four Chiricahua Apache subdivisions. Living entirely in the Sierra Madre of Mexico and never having spent time on American reservations, they would have been unknown to the U.S. Army or to reservation administrators. They were, of course, well known in Mexico, but once the massive campaigns of the 1880s were over and the infamous Geronimo was a prisoner, the relatively few Apaches that remained did not attract nearly as much attention. To their number were added six known members of Geronimo's band, who slipped away from the cavalry detachment that was escorting Geronimo and his people after they had negotiated terms of surrender with Lieutenant Gatewood roughly thirty miles south of the border.
In 1889, the Apache Kid, a notorious Western Apache outlaw, fled south to hide in the Sierra Madre, where he formed a gang comprised mostly of Chiricahuas. In addition, a small number of Western Apaches broke out of San Carlos in the 1890s and headed south into the Sierra Madre, perhaps joining the others already there. The old Western Apache scout, Sherman Curley, told my father of the many times he served with the army during the '90s in pursuit of "renegade" Apaches who were thought to have broken out of the San Carlos reservation or who had come north from Mexico to raid ranches in southern Arizona.
Mexican folklore is rich in stories of these people, stretching all the way from the border towns of Naco and Agua Prieta, two hundred miles south to Yecora and Sahuaripa where the Mountain Pima live. The stories are told even farther south than that--as far south as the Barranca del Cobrc, Tarahumara Indian country.
Within twenty years of the surrender of Geronimo, settlers began to populate the Sierra Madre, and as they did so, they made more and more frequent contact with the Apaches there. Contact led inevitably to friction, and conflict soon broke out again. Tension built throughout the teens and early twenties, coming to a head in 1927 with a sensational murder and kidnapping near the village of Nacori Chico, about seventy-five miles south of the sister border towns of Douglas, Arizona, and Agua Prieta, Sonora.
While traveling along a remote mountain road in the Sierra Madre, a Mexican family by the name of Fimbres was attacked by a small group of Sierra Madre Apaches. The attackers killed the wife, Maria Dolores Fimbres, and kidnapped her three-year-old son, Gerardo. It was over in seconds. Maria was mounted on a horse, but her husband Francisco was walking and had fallen behind. He watched helplessly from one hundred feet down the trail. Immediately he mounted a massive manhunt in the mountains.
Newspapers on both sides of the border picked up the story, and it even ran in New York and California papers. While living in Tucson and beginning his work among the Western Apaches, my father heard of these events and went to Mexico with an experienced guide to find out about the Sierra Madre Apaches before they were all gone. It was said that Mexican ranchers were shooting them on sight.
After three years of fruitless searching, in April 1930, the Mexicans finally found and attacked a Sierra Madre Apache camp. A man and two women were killed, but there was no sign of the kidnapped boy, by now six years old and probably completely adapted to his life with the Apaches. Two weeks later at the spot where the three Apaches were shot, Gerardo's body was found, killed by the Apaches in revenge.
News of these events spread quickly. It was soon open season on Apaches in Mexico--if they could be found. Elusive as the Sierra Madre Apaches were, reservation Apaches in the United States knew all too well of their existence. Chiricahuas at the Mescalero reservation in New Mexico were certain they knew who this group was: their relatives who had stayed behind in Mexico when Geronimo surrendered in 1886.
As this section begins, it is November 1932, slightly less than a year since Grennie's return from his last trip to Mexico. He has made a trip to Mescalero and is talking with an old Chiricahua Apache named Sam Kenoi. This chapter uses the format of The Apache Diaries in which the narrative is handed back and forth between Grennie's diary and my diary.
GRENVILLE'S DIARY
Nov. 16, 1932, Mescalero Agency
Visiting here, I met Sam Kenoi, a Ndendaa'i Apache. I told him about hearing about there still being some Chiricahua in the Sierra Madre and he was very anxious to know if I knew the names of any of them. He knew of them apparently and from what can be gathered, the renegades now in the Sierra Madre must all be Ndendaa'i.
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Post by Second on Apr 19, 2011 8:25:04 GMT -5
The topic has been killing me. I wish I was in liberty to say more. As of 2001, The Chiricahuas of Sierra Madre are alive and well.
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Post by naiche on Dec 24, 2011 23:16:08 GMT -5
NEIL'S DIARY
Sam knows of their existence, even of one of the individual names (it was Adilnadzi*d, mentioned in a later conversation) but apparently no more than that.
At this point Grennie assumes that all the Sierra Madre Apache are Ndendaa'i, the southernmost of the Chiricahuas. In fact, there were some Western Apaches: some of them captured when the Sierra Madre Apaches raided San Carlos and Fort Apache in the early twentieth century; and some of them Western Apache renegades who had broken out of the reservation in the 1890s.
As much as the Chiricahuas at Mescalero might have wanted it, as of 1932 they have had no recorded contact with the Sierra Madre Apaches. For Sam Kenoi and other Chiricahuas, knowledge of long-lost relatives in the old homeland would mean hope for the end to a separation, long thought to be permanent; but that hope is growing dimmer, for the final act in the drama of the Sierra Madre Apaches is opening in Mexico even as my father and Sam are talking.
Since the fateful battle of April 1930 that claimed the lives of three Apaches and ultimately, Gerardo Fimbres, no sighting in Mexico has been reported. From the footprints left at the scene of the fight, the Mexican attackers could tell that there were survivors--most of them just children.
Following the death of Gerardo, the most hard-bitten of the Mexicans commit themselves to a campaign of extermination. The government has washed its hands of the matter. The Sierra Madre, as always, is outside the law, and it is open season on Apaches.
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Post by jasper4 on Dec 24, 2011 23:56:09 GMT -5
is account by Ms. Bigrope director of the mescalero cultural center of the trip in 1988 when we went into mexico to meet and speak with the 'lost ones; who never came back
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Post by jasper4 on Dec 30, 2011 20:25:57 GMT -5
Apache talks with Helge Ingstad on apaches in the sierra madre
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Post by Montolzh on Feb 14, 2012 18:21:04 GMT -5
There have been documented Apache raids into Arizona and New Mexico as late as the mid 1930's. You may know of the story of "Apache May" from Texas John Slaughter of San Bernadino Ranch fame. The border ranches were continually raided by Apaches; John Slaughter and ranch hands continually hunted them down and killed them. In 1896 at one camp, Slaughter saved an orpahned babygirl from being stoned by the ranch hands and paraded her around Tombstone for 10 years, until she mysteriously burnt to death. Friends of the Slaughter family say that young May hated Viola Slaughter, and threatened to kill her when May was as young as 3 years old. I feel that she was basically made a slave to the Slaughter family.  |
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Post by John H on Apr 5, 2013 5:31:51 GMT -5
very interesting article -
C:\Users\jan.hlousek\Documents\Business Mexicans Recall Last Apaches Living In Sierra Seattle Times Newspaper.htm
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Post by John B on Apr 5, 2013 5:34:57 GMT -5
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chi1
New Member
Posts: 39 
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Post by chi1 on Mar 4, 2015 18:25:55 GMT -5
I join this forum few months ago, and I haven't read all posts, I just start reading this post today and I can see a lot of interesting comments, I'm not sure if you still interested or feeding this forum that was started on 2011, I see some comments up to 2013, but if you want to continue it, I can contribuite with few things, I'm actually living on Chihuahua state and I know several of the ancient sacred lands, still a lot of them more to visit, hope I can do it on my lifetime, somethings you mentioned on this forum is about Lipan Apaches, first, they are still visiting and settled on Mexico but basically on the Coahuila state to the east of Chihuahua specially to Muzquiz Coahuila, Muzquiz is the last name of a General/Governor of Coahuila, but some of their relatives (Miguel Muzquiz father of Alstate Mother Lipan) were taken by the Lipans and actually on Mezcalero reservation you can find descendance, such as Sara Misquez, Muzquiz such as lot of words that deteriorated by the pronunciation of names in Spanish written by Americans in English according to their phonetic, well, not much Lipans on Chihuahua but Coahuila's.
On Chihuahua there were Mezcaleros on the east, Chihenes on North Central, Nednais or Nendais and ChoKonen (Chokohonde-Jocomes) On the West and down south to sierra madre, Gulkahendeh On central and south Chihuahua... Pronounciations vary depending if in mexican-spanish english, or spaniards like Jocomes written by father Eusebio Kino on the 1700's...
Well, In my opinion Regarding to Kayitah four possibilities:
1.-They might have been absorbed by other tribes of the area, maybe even by former enemies. Yaqui? Tarahumara? Opata? YES SOME OF THEM.
2.-It's also possible that they were eventually hunted down by Tarahumaras and mexican troops. If so, the surviving men and women may have been sent to prisons in Chihuahua or Sonora, or sold into slavery and prostitution, while the children were given into mexican foster homes/families. YES A LOT OF THEM, BUT A LOT CHILDREN AND WOMEN WERE ALSO KILLED, EVEN MORE SAD. BUT MAINLY BY MEXICAN TROOPS MORE THAN BY TARAHUMARAS, THEY WERE ALSO SLAVES OF THE MEXICAN TROOPS NOT THE CASE OF MAURICIO CORREDOR, HE WAS MORE ASSIMILATED TO MEXICANS THAN TARAHUMARAS.(MEXICAN TROOPS MEANS MOST WHITES DESCENDANT OF SPANIARDS)AND DON'T FORGET US TROOPS AND APACHE SCOUTS.
3.-The third theory is that they eventually gave up their traditional way of life and became vaqueros and farmers like their former mexican raiding victims. Could be that some of them took that route. MOST OF THEM BECAME FARMERS, BUT DIDN'T GAVE UP TRADITIONS AT ALL, WAY OF LIFE YES, BUT YOU CAN STILL SEE TRACES OF CEREMONIES, FOODS, WORDS, CLOTHING, DANCE ETC. AND THEY BECAME FARMERS BECAUSE THE US WOULD MAKE THEM PRISONERS AND MEXICANS WANT TO ANNIHILATE THEM, SO THEY HIDE BETWEEN MEXICANS(INDIANS ASSIMILATED TO MEXICAN LIFESTYLE, BIG PERCENTAGE OF NDEH "CONVERTED" TO MEXICANS SINCE THE PRESIDIOS ERA) NOT MUCH MIXTURE WITH WHITES UNTIL MID 20TH CENTURY, MEXICO WAS VERY ELITIST ON SOCIAL CLASSES AND RACES.
4.-Now the fourth possibility is my favorite one, and probably wishful thinking. What if they are still there, living as peaceful nomads, hunters and gatherers, in the vast Sierra Madre? NICE BUT NOT FOR MUCH TIME! THEY EVENTUALLY BECAME "MEXICANS".
My Family is from Colonia Victoria Municipality of Ascencion Chihuahua, is on midway between Janos and Santa Rita del Cobre, we have around Florida Mountains, Mimbres River end, Laguna de Guzman, Laguna de Santa Maria, Cañon de Boca Grande, Mountain el Espia or Frijolar and it was an apache settlement called Carrizalillo because it was people that previously were on Presidio el Carrizal. This place is 1 1/2 hour dirve from Janos and the beginig of Sierra Madre with Carcay Mountain (Word deteriorated the other way, from Athabascan to Spanish) or Carcaj Mountain. Places full of apache hystory. We are Red People. Now I'm living at Samalayuca and first thing I can see every day at wakeup is Sierra de la Candelaria Peak.
If is of your interest I can have a list of places and events for the Nde on Chihuahua State specially Sierra Madre. and provide a lot more information. Just I don't know where to start.
Regards.
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