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Post by kayitah on Mar 16, 2011 15:40:29 GMT -5
When Geronimo surrendered for the final time, this time at Skeleton Canyon in the Peloncillo Mountains to General Nelson A. Miles, some of his people were still missing. "Naiché was back in the hills, waiting for his "brother" to appear with some horses they had left in Sonora." (Sweeney, "From Cochise to Geronimo").
This man's name was Adilnadzid, or Atelnietze. At the time he was probably in his mid-30s. With him were a Nedhni named Nat-cul-baye, also known as José Maria Elias (c. in his 50s in 1886), another man (or teenage boy) and 4 women and children. They roamed the Sierra Madre freely for another decade. Adilnadzid was severely wounded in a skirmish with American troops in 1896 and, supposedly, died soon after. Nat-cul-baye passed away around 1900.
While I don't have anything to prove it, it seems highly likely that groups of Nednhi never surrendered to United States troops. My guess would be that they preserved their traditional and independant lifestyle for many years. We have sources that report that Apaches roamed the Sierra Madre into the 1930s...
That's where my knowledge ends. And that's also where the books I've read, do end.
This raises even more questions: What happened to them? How many Nednhis lived there in the Sierra Madre back in 1886? A few dozen individuals or several family groups?
They might have been absorbed by other tribes of the area, maybe even by former enemies. Yaqui? Tarahumara? Opata?
Just a guess.
It's also possible that they were eventually hunted down by Tarahumaras and mexican troops. If so, the surviving men and women may have been sent to prisons in Chihuahua or Sonora, or sold into slavery and prostitution, while the children were given into mexican foster homes/families.
A very sad thought.
The third theory is that they eventually gave up their traditional way of life and became vaqueros and farmers like their former mexican raiding victims. Could be that some of them took that route.
Now the fourth possibility is my favorite one, and probably wishful thinking. What if they are still there, living as peaceful nomads, hunters and gatherers, in the vast Sierra Madre?
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Post by jeroen on Mar 17, 2011 14:30:26 GMT -5
I just finished rereading Gatewood & Geronimo by Louis Kraft. I know the book is not always on the mark when it comes to details but he correctly writes that Naiche hesitated because he was waiting for a relative sent by the chief to collect some horses. This relative is described as a young man by Wood. I have come to the conclusion this is probably not Atelnietze who, based on his appearance, can hardly be viewed as a young man (close to 40 years at the time). Naiche calls this young relative "brother" but this may well be a another cousin.
Furthermore, Naiche, Geronimo, Perico and two others rode ahead to Bowie with Miles, the rest of the band follwed a few days later. It was from this band that three maen and three women broke away before reaching the fort and this occured just before dawn on september 8th. This small group likely included Atelnietze and Natculbaye. So at least 7 members of the Naiche/Geronimo group did not surrender.
I agree that there were probably a few Nednhis left in the Sierra Madre and all joined forces eventually. They may have been joined by some individual refugees from San Carlos and Fort Apache later on.
There is no way of knowing of course, but I think they did survive well into the 20th century, perhaps to as late as the 1950's. Naturally I share your preferred fourth option, but likely they eventually blended with local Mexican communities, perhaps predominantly Indian...
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Post by kayitah on Mar 17, 2011 15:46:45 GMT -5
Thanks, Jeroen. You doubt that Atelnietze was the "brother" Naiché was waiting for?
I have doubts that he was 40 at the time of the Fly photograph. He looks younger (especially on the photograph where he stands at center), more like in his mid-thirties.
You are probably right in that they blended with local mexican (indian) communities in northern Mexico. I'd just love to go out there and search for them. They must have left traces...
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Post by jeroen on Mar 17, 2011 16:26:56 GMT -5
Yes, I think the relative sent by Naiche was not Atelnietze, who probably intended to come along with Naiche but may have had second thoughts and Natculbaye was of the same mind; both likely taking along family members. Or, but that is just a thought, not based on any proof, perhaps Atelnietze went back to look for the relative, perhaps his son?!?
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Post by andersen on Mar 19, 2011 11:33:15 GMT -5
I am a Danish screenwriter living in Buenos Aires, Argentina - and a new member in here. I may have some interesting information regarding this. You see, some years ago I bought a book by the famous Norwegian journalist and amateur anthropologist, Helge Ingstad: "Apache-indianerne, jagten på den forsvundne stamme" (H. Hagerup, 1948). It is a Danish translation of the Norwegian original, which was released in Norway 1939.
In the book Helge Ingstad descibes an expedition into the Sierra Madre in 1937. Members of the expedition were Ingstad, a notorious Mexican Yaqui, Mora (who had personally killed several Apache women in 1932) AND 76 year old Yahnozah, yes, the young Chriicahua, who surrendered with Geronimo in 1886!
The objective was to make contact with the possible remnants of Apaches in the Sierra Madre. The expedition did not, but Ingstad claims that both Yahnozah and Mora saw sure signs that there were still Apaches around.
The interesting thing, though, is that Ingstad over several pages describes the extremely violent incidents between 1925 and 1932, where Mexicans killed around 25 Apaches, mostly women, and captured some children.
In the book there is an 1937 interview (and photo) with Lupe, daughter of The Apache Kid, captured 14 years old in 1910, adopted by a poor Mexican family, Los Fuentes of Nacori Chico. When Helge Ingstad interviewed her, she was married to a Mexican and living in Chihuahua.
In the book Helge Ingstad also descibes how he meets a six year old Apache boy who was taken by Mexicans in 1932, one year old, after his family had been wiped. The boy was adopted by a wealthy Mexican, Cheno Medina, and was 1937 living in the village Cumpas, Sonora.
There is also the story of Bui, a 12 years old girl in 1937. Captured May 1932 and later adopted by a "wealthy American family". Ingstad met this girl, living in the US, and interviewed her. There are also pictures of her in the book.
I am up against a deadline with Danish National Television (April 1) and cannot translate into the various interviews etc of the book right now, but I could do it in April, plus upload the photos of the book, if you should find this interesting.
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xframe
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Post by xframe on Mar 19, 2011 17:06:44 GMT -5
andersenthank you for your post and welcome to this board. I'm also kinda new here, but Jeroen, Kayitah and others are real experts. Anyway I did read the english version of the book you mention above and just finished it two weeks ago. Naiches2 also here from the board was so kind to send me a pdf file of it. This book was a great read and if you could post pictures on here it would be awesome, because I couldn't see them in the pdf!! I can't really describe, but to read every word about the old Yahnozha and the things he told Ingstard 1937 about the time when he roamed the Sierra Madre with Geronimo was absolutely fascinating for me. I share with kayitah the wishful thinking that the hidden people may have lived a kinda old lifestyle, but after reading this book I was even more sad. It killed the illusion. If there were a couple of Apaches left and roaming the Sierra Madre the early 20 century they really lived a very poor & dangerous life with nearly nothing. Always in fear to be hunt down and being killed. But nevertheless I really can recommend this book for all of you who didn't know it. As I said just the parts about Yahnozha are amazing!
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Post by johnmartin on Mar 20, 2011 16:59:20 GMT -5
Much information on the Sierra Madres apaches after Geronimo's final surrender is in Neil Goodwins "the apache diaries", already mentioned on this board. The book contains a lot of additions on Ingstad, for example the following (p. 230). When Yahnozha and Andrew, the other Chiricahua member of Ingstads pary, returned home, they reported that the nearest the came in their search was the discovery of a camp of natives just abonded. If this discovery has taken place it much have happened when Ingstads party splitted after they found clear signs of natives and Yahnozha and Andrew went alone for a few days. But they dis not report the discovery to Ingstad, for no word of it is in his book. A puzzling fact.
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xframe
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Post by xframe on Mar 20, 2011 17:24:35 GMT -5
Much information on the Sierra Madres apaches after Geronimo's final surrender is in Neil Goodwins "the apache diaries", already mentioned on this board. The book contains a lot of additions on Ingstad, for example the following (p. 230). When Yahnozha and Andrew, the other Chiricahua member of Ingstads pary, returned home, they reported that the nearest the came in their search was the discovery of a camp of natives just abonded. If this discovery has taken place it much have happened when Ingstads party splitted after they found clear signs of natives and Yahnozha and Andrew went alone for a few days. But they dis not report the discovery to Ingstad, for no word of it is in his book. A puzzling fact. Very interesting. When I read about the split and that Yahnozha and Andrew searched a couple of days alone I had this thought in my head: Maybe they want to find the Apaches alone, especially because of the other native (Mora) who killed some of the Apaches before. |
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Post by jeroen on Mar 21, 2011 5:08:59 GMT -5
Good point! That would make sense, since the refugee Apaches had been hunted and chased all over the place for decades, so it is not surprising they wouldn't show themselves to anybody, except perhaps other Apaches...
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Post by jeroen on Mar 24, 2011 11:35:11 GMT -5
Did you notice that Gatewood wrote that, when he met the whole band on august 25th, they numbered 24 men and 14 women and children? He repeats these numbers later on and he recognizes that both Naiche and Geronimo had their own followers, the majority (12 to 15 men and their families) with Naiche... If his numbers are correct (and why would he make a mistake here), it would mean that at least a few more than the known 7 Chiricahuas ( Atelnietze, Natculbaye etc) did not come in... for the numbers with those that did surrender (see the Stanley list) do not add up... Perhaps Naiche sent more people back with "his brother"?
This all implies that there were at least a few more Chiricahuas left in the Sierra Madre.
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Post by kayitah on Mar 24, 2011 15:58:14 GMT -5
Did you notice that Gatewood wrote that, when he met the whole band on august 25th, they numbered 24 men and 14 women and children? He repeats these numbers later on and he recognizes that both Naiche and Geronimo had their own followers, the majority (12 to 15 men and their families) with Naiche... If his numbers are correct (and why would he make a mistake here), it would mean that at least a few more than the known 7 Chiricahuas ( Atelnietze, Natculbaye etc) did not come in... for the numbers with those that did surrender ( see the Stanley list) do not add up... Perhaps Naiche sent more people back with "his brother"? This all implies that there were at least a few more Chiricahuas left in the Sierra Madre. Jeroen, what is the Stanley list? |
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nde
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Post by nde on Mar 24, 2011 16:40:34 GMT -5
There are some Apaches in Chihuahua Mexico...I'm not sure which specific tribe though, anyone know?
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Post by kayitah on Mar 25, 2011 3:12:05 GMT -5
There are some Apaches in Chihuahua Mexico...I'm not sure which specific tribe though, anyone know? Really? Do you know the region/settlement? I think most of them are probably Nednhi, maybe with a few Chokonen and some Western Apache. |
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nde
New Member
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Post by nde on Mar 25, 2011 3:57:05 GMT -5
There are some Apaches in Chihuahua Mexico...I'm not sure which specific tribe though, anyone know? Really? Do you know the region/settlement? I think most of them are probably Nednhi, maybe with a few Chokonen and some Western Apache. I came across this video a year ago According to the comments on this video one claims to be an Apache from Uruachic Chihuahua and there's another comment stating "you can visit copper canyon i bet you'll find many of your apache brothers or in the sierra tarahumara" Oh and I don't think they were hunted down by the Tarahumara, I was told that the Tarahumara actually feared Apaches then. |
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Post by jeroen on Mar 25, 2011 11:42:08 GMT -5
The Stanley list is the one compiled by General Stanley at Fort Houston and used by Angie Debo in "Geronimo" (among others), which was later confirmed by Langdon in Fort Pickens.
Nice video! Unfortunately, it is not certain these Apaches are Chiricahua, they may just as well be Lipan. (when most Lipan settled in Oklahoma and Mescalero there were still Lipan families remaining in Mexico)
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