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Post by andersen on Mar 25, 2011 13:07:52 GMT -5
They may just as well be Lipan, but even so, I find this extremely interesting, who knows anything about the Lipan, who stayed in Mexico? I can´t help thinking that there is the basis for a very good documentary here - following US Apaches going down into Old Mexico in search of long lost relatives? I am a film maker, fiction writer (Flammen & Citronen aka Flame & Citron aka Tage des Zorns), but I would really love initiate a class documentary about this --
I definately think I could get money for it in Denmark and Norway, as it would be sort of an expedition in the foot steps of Helge Ingstad, let me hear what you think, anybody who would like to be involved?
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Post by jeroen on Mar 25, 2011 14:16:23 GMT -5
As a professional artist I can see the picture you have in mind! A really good, well founded and thoroughly researched documentary is a great idea! In my opinion, the whole story deserves to be told in a true and respectful way... I, for one, would be honored to get involved...
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nde
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Post by nde on Mar 25, 2011 15:04:16 GMT -5
The Stanley list is the one compiled by General Stanley at Fort Houston and used by Angie Debo in "Geronimo" (among others), which was later confirmed by Langdon in Fort Pickens. Nice video! Unfortunately, it is not certain these Apaches are Chiricahua, they may just as well be Lipan. (when most Lipan settled in Oklahoma and Mescalero there were still Lipan families remaining in Mexico) Yeah I'm Lipan Apache and I know some Lipan went into Coahuila, I'm not sure about Chihuahua though. (Some Lipan Apaches stayed in Texas though as well, my grandma still lives there. I'm from the High beaked moccasin band of Lipan Apaches) |
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Post by andersen on Mar 25, 2011 15:17:08 GMT -5
Thanks, jeroen - very happy that you the possibilities in this idea that popped up in my head just hours ago. I will definately get back to you, as research is vital for a documentary like this. At one level it will be sort of a road movie: the US Apaches going down into the Sierra Madre and their search - which means an inner search as well (the expedition members need be well casted). But there will the historical level as well. There will be, if possible, interviews/meeting with Bui somewhere in the US (born in 1925, she may still be alive) or the little Apache boy, Helge Instad met in Sonora 1937, he was six years old then, he may be alive, descendants of Lupe, the daughter the Apache Kid etc. etc. This story, I think, is booming with potential. Above all, as you mention, we are going for quality here, a real film festival winner, but without that intention there is no way of getting funding from the Danish National Film Institute, state´s money, got to be really well thought out.
My plan is the following:
1) Get in contact with a Danish documentary producer. I have got one in mind, who is experiended in films like this.
2) Decide with him, when I´m in Denmark in possibly May, which director would be relevant.
3) The first (filmed) research interviews in the US - which means experts like you, but also, if still alive, Bui, "the Apache boy", descendants of Lupe in Mexico etc.
4) Planning of the expedition and the expdition itself.
I see my role as a researcher, script doctor and initiator, not necessarily as a participant in the expedition though of course it would be a dream come true, BUT the film before anything else.
Thanks again for your support, I will be back --
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nde
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Post by nde on Mar 25, 2011 15:19:45 GMT -5
Thanks, jeroen - very happy that you the possibilities in this idea that popped up in my head just hours ago. I will definately get back to you, as research is vital for a documentary like this. At one level it will be sort of a road movie: the US Apaches going down into the Sierra Madre and their search - which means an inner search as well (the expedition members need be well casted). But there will the historical level as well. There will be, if possible, interviews/meeting with Bui somewhere in the US (born in 1925, she may still be alive) or the little Apache boy, Helge Instad met in Sonora 1937, he was six years old then, he may be alive, descendants of Lupe, the daughter the Apache Kid etc. etc. This story, I think, is booming with potential. Above all, as you mention, we are going for quality here, a real film festival winner, but without that intention there is no way of getting funding from the Danish National Film Institute, state´s money, got to be really well thought out. My plan is the following: 1) Get in contact with a Danish documentary producer. I have got one in mind, who is experiended in films like this. 2) Decide with him, when I´m in Denmark in possibly May, which director would be relevant. 3) The first (filmed) research interviews in the US - which means experts like you, but also, if still alive, Bui, "the Apache boy", descendants of Lupe in Mexico etc. 4) Planning of the expedition and the expdition itself. I see my role as a researcher, script doctor and initiator, not necessarily as a participant in the expedition though of course it would be a dream come true, BUT the film before anything else. Thanks again for your support, I will be back -- Is your documentary going to be about Chiricahua Apaches specifically? |
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Post by andersen on Mar 25, 2011 15:34:54 GMT -5
Hola nde -
No, not specifically, because I don´t think that the Apaches in Mexico will be of 100 precent Chiricahua/Nedhni descendance. They were joined by The Apache Kid and others from San Carlos/White Mountain - plus a few of their number may have been Mescalero. And as jeroen said earlier on, there is a possibility that these people in Chihuahua may in fact be Lipan! Therefore, and because the Lipan experience, surviving under cover in Texas, may parallel how the Apaches in Mexico may have survived, this story is in fact a very important on digging into.
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Post by kayitah on Mar 25, 2011 16:16:19 GMT -5
They may just as well be Lipan, but even so, I find this extremely interesting, who knows anything about the Lipan, who stayed in Mexico? I can´t help thinking that there is the basis for a very good documentary here - following US Apaches going down into Old Mexico in search of long lost relatives? I am a film maker, fiction writer (Flammen & Citronen aka Flame & Citron aka Tage des Zorns), but I would really love initiate a class documentary about this -- I definately think I could get money for it in Denmark and Norway, as it would be sort of an expedition in the foot steps of Helge Ingstad, let me hear what you think, anybody who would like to be involved? I have been thinking about the same thing - a journey in the footsteps of the Chiricahua of the old days. A well-researched and historically accurate documentary about the story behind and the people today. I would be honored to be involved. |
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xframe
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Post by xframe on Mar 25, 2011 16:38:38 GMT -5
They may just as well be Lipan, but even so, I find this extremely interesting, who knows anything about the Lipan, who stayed in Mexico? I can´t help thinking that there is the basis for a very good documentary here - following US Apaches going down into Old Mexico in search of long lost relatives? I am a film maker, fiction writer (Flammen & Citronen aka Flame & Citron aka Tage des Zorns), but I would really love initiate a class documentary about this -- I definately think I could get money for it in Denmark and Norway, as it would be sort of an expedition in the foot steps of Helge Ingstad, let me hear what you think, anybody who would like to be involved? I have been thinking about the same thing - a journey in the footsteps of the Chiricahua of the old days. A well-researched and historically accurate documentary about the story behind and the people today. I would be honored to be involved. Reading this thread means this to me: Goose Pimples ;D I already started to cross my fingers and toe's that you guys will make that happen! I do offer my support whatever that might be, just keep me posted pls  |
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Post by andersen on Mar 25, 2011 17:05:48 GMT -5
thank you very much, kayitah and xframe! I will move along with this and then I´ll be back. You will be needed! Gracias una vez mas --
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Post by naiches2 on Mar 26, 2011 3:41:23 GMT -5
If I can help I would consider it an honor to participate in this matter.
I'm a video editor.
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Post by kayitah on Mar 27, 2011 16:12:06 GMT -5
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nde
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Post by nde on Mar 29, 2011 2:37:30 GMT -5
I remember reading the second one before but I never saw the other two, thanks! Just wish I could read Spanish. |
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Post by johnmartin on Mar 29, 2011 11:59:57 GMT -5
Thanks, jeroen - very happy that you the possibilities in this idea that popped up in my head just hours ago. I will definately get back to you, as research is vital for a documentary like this. At one level it will be sort of a road movie: the US Apaches going down into the Sierra Madre and their search - which means an inner search as well (the expedition members need be well casted). But there will the historical level as well. There will be, if possible, interviews/meeting with Bui somewhere in the US (born in 1925, she may still be alive) or the little Apache boy, Helge Instad met in Sonora 1937, he was six years old then, he may be alive, descendants of Lupe, the daughter the Apache Kid etc. etc. This story, I think, is booming with potential. Above all, as you mention, we are going for quality here, a real film festival winner, but without that intention there is no way of getting funding from the Danish National Film Institute, state´s money, got to be really well thought out. My plan is the following: 1) Get in contact with a Danish documentary producer. I have got one in mind, who is experiended in films like this. 2) Decide with him, when I´m in Denmark in possibly May, which director would be relevant. 3) The first (filmed) research interviews in the US - which means experts like you, but also, if still alive, Bui, "the Apache boy", descendants of Lupe in Mexico etc. 4) Planning of the expedition and the expdition itself. I see my role as a researcher, script doctor and initiator, not necessarily as a participant in the expedition though of course it would be a dream come true, BUT the film before anything else. Thanks again for your support, I will be back -- Lupe married a widower with five children, but had no children of her own. The boy Ingstad spoke to became a schoolmaster and died in a car accident in Mexico City in 1962. His adoptive name was Julio Madrid. An American anthropologist named Thomas Hinton interviewed him in the 1950's. The girl Bui, adoptive name Carmela Harris, never married and stayed all her live with her adoptive mother. She died in 1972 in an accident in Italy while visiting her adoptive sister. This is all from Neil Goodwin's "The apache diaries". According to the backside of the book Neil Goodwin is a filmmaker. He produced the documentary "Geronimo and the Apache resistence" which I never saw. Anyway, he had a dream: following the footsteps of his father in search for traces of the Sierra Madres apaches. He made it come true. At the end of his book Goodwin gives some suggestions for further research. Probably there are apache speaking communities in the hills west of Chihua City. And further, the reports of 30 apache families, most of them Chiricahua's, still in the 1950's living more south in the Sierra Madres, in Pima area. John |
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Post by coeurrouge on Mar 31, 2011 11:55:30 GMT -5
andersenthank you for your post and welcome to this board. I'm also kinda new here, but Jeroen, Kayitah and others are real experts. Anyway I did read the english version of the book you mention above and just finished it two weeks ago. Naiches2 also here from the board was so kind to send me a pdf file of it. This book was a great read and if you could post pictures on here it would be awesome, because I couldn't see them in the pdf!! I can't really describe, but to read every word about the old Yahnozha and the things he told Ingstard 1937 about the time when he roamed the Sierra Madre with Geronimo was absolutely fascinating for me. I share with kayitah the wishful thinking that the hidden people may have lived a kinda old lifestyle, but after reading this book I was even more sad. It killed the illusion. If there were a couple of Apaches left and roaming the Sierra Madre the early 20 century they really lived a very poor & dangerous life with nearly nothing. Always in fear to be hunt down and being killed. But nevertheless I really can recommend this book for all of you who didn't know it. As I said just the parts about Yahnozha are amazing! Is Yanozha said something of his family on the time of Geronimo's War? It is wrote that when he surrended in 1886, he hed a wife of 20 years old. I am quite sure she was not Iskada (related to Loco whom Yanozha married). So who was she? |
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Post by kayitah on Mar 31, 2011 16:16:31 GMT -5
andersenthank you for your post and welcome to this board. I'm also kinda new here, but Jeroen, Kayitah and others are real experts. Anyway I did read the english version of the book you mention above and just finished it two weeks ago. Naiches2 also here from the board was so kind to send me a pdf file of it. This book was a great read and if you could post pictures on here it would be awesome, because I couldn't see them in the pdf!! I can't really describe, but to read every word about the old Yahnozha and the things he told Ingstard 1937 about the time when he roamed the Sierra Madre with Geronimo was absolutely fascinating for me. I share with kayitah the wishful thinking that the hidden people may have lived a kinda old lifestyle, but after reading this book I was even more sad. It killed the illusion. If there were a couple of Apaches left and roaming the Sierra Madre the early 20 century they really lived a very poor & dangerous life with nearly nothing. Always in fear to be hunt down and being killed. But nevertheless I really can recommend this book for all of you who didn't know it. As I said just the parts about Yahnozha are amazing! Is Yanozha said something of his family on the time of Geronimo's War? It is wrote that when he surrended in 1886, he hed a wife of 20 years old. I am quite sure she was not Iskada (related to Loco whom Yanozha married). So who was she? Is Iskada the same as Rachel Tsikahda? |
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