|
Post by dT on Mar 4, 2015 18:42:12 GMT -5
Kayitah ... you are correct.
what happened to the missing men? and for that matter ... whatever happened to Bigfoot Masai? One of the world's greatest escape artists?
They are IN THE WIND, Kayitah. HAHAHA!! Spirits in the winds of the Sierra Madre.
dT
|
|
chi1
New Member
Posts: 39
|
Post by chi1 on Mar 4, 2015 18:49:56 GMT -5
I Found This Information on Casas Grandes Chihuahua
I Apologize for the quick translation.
Free latest apache in Chihuahua was a woman ** "Indian" is, today, a legend in Casas Grandes. THE CHRONICLE OF CHIHUAHUA November 12, 2011 By Froilan Meza Rivera Casas Grandes, Chih.- The latest issue of free Apaches and land fighters in Chihuahua, was captured almost fifty years ago in the foothills of the Sierra Madre. It was a woman who was made a slave, sold in marriage to a villager in Jovales, and who has since never issued a single word in mind of a rebellion against his captors in the extreme. "Indian" is, today, a legend in Casas Grandes. Still in the forties of the Twentieth Century, people saw spoke of surprise and occasional encounters with the remnants of decaying Apache bands. Fifty years after the Mexican army to expel the last Apaches Chihuahuan territory, and likewise they had surrendered in the United States heads the last rebel Apaches! It is known that after the death of Captain Juh, many Apaches were scattered, and went back to impregnable places they knew. They were called "broncos Indians," many of whom managed to find in rural communities without express their true ethnic ascendancy. Only a few survivors to social debacle that ended his village, formed small roving bands hiding and went desbalagadas in the mountains. By the direction of the mountains between Wood and Casas Grandes, was in the forties unconfirmed rumor, that a "savage" Indian woman wandered Jovales population. They had seen, they said, by the Mesa del Gavilan. Who was naked and riding "to mop" equal bronco horse she. Chased two individuals who decided to hunt. This story is told Jorge Cordero Lurueña , who studies the life and history of the original ethnic groups in these lands. At one time, the persecutors harassed women and cornered, so it was only him deep into the now named in his memory as "Peak of India". He went and hid there, but one of the hunters stood there, at the foot of the peak, to see that not escape, while the other went to ask for help ". Several came to participate in the capture of India, and went with the hope of gain, because he has to tell the reader still in those years it was used the "broncos" Indians who were captured, were sold as slaves to whom wanted acquire. Tied hand and foot, the woman was taken to the town of Jovales, where he was exposed to the curiosity of the people. Nobody could touch, and several men were beaten and tried to rape her away from her violently. Women they pleased, they said, because I was naked from the waist up, but by dint of bites, scratches and kicks, no one could "tame". They treated her like a wild horse in corral. "There they kill", decided after several failed attempts to sell, because nobody cared to take her home, given its ferocity. But at the last moment Mr. Francisco "Chico" Sandoval, arrived and announced that he would take with him to India. Something happened inside that room when the man's gaze locked with hers. Suddenly the face of the apache woman and became distended, to grimace in serene face. "un tie her" ordered "Chico" Sandoval sellers, while depositing silver coins that had asked them to change the slave. "Do Not. You'll kill. Better than hang them in the square, "said one of the hunters. But at the insistence of the buyer, will eventually loosen his bonds with caution. All fears were unfounded because the more docile way the apache drifted Indian arm of the man who loved her companion at home. Francisco Sandoval made her his wife and took her several children, who joined the ladder with that man already had, because he was a widower. Apache Indian was an exemplary mother not only for the children themselves, but for the children of widower and his late wife, and a good wife and homemaker. The only "but" they put him was that never spoke again. Cordero Lurueña refers to a Martin Sandoval, who is living grandson of the Apache woman. And we know that other grandchildren of her and don "Chico" live today in Colorado.
|
|
|
Post by dT on Mar 5, 2015 15:47:24 GMT -5
yes, remaining Apaches lived in the wild.
I suspect that some other "bronco natives" existed in the USA and Canada, after all the tribes were finally settled on reservations. For example, there is much room in the mountains of Canada, especially in the summer. Remnants of the New Perce might have gone there, and some other northern tribes and people from southern Canada. Not many, but some. who would know?
A few free Native men and women existed for one more generation. You might say that it was the "last breath of air" for the freedom of wild Native tribes. Geronimo was trying to help this process ... whether you believe that he succeeded or not, really depends on your point of view.
dT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2015 16:47:46 GMT -5
yes, remaining Apaches lived in the wild. I suspect that some other "bronco natives" existed in the USA and Canada, after all the tribes were finally settled on reservations. For example, there is much room in the mountains of Canada, especially in the summer. Remnants of the New Perce might have gone there, and some other northern tribes and people from southern Canada. Not many, but some. who would know? A few free Native men and women existed for one more generation. You might say that it was the "last breath of air" for the freedom of wild Native tribes. Geronimo was trying to help this process ... whether you believe that he succeeded or not, really depends on your point of view. dT Canada....Really? ?
|
|
|
Post by dT on Mar 5, 2015 19:43:17 GMT -5
NOT Geronimo in Canada. Hahahahahahaha! He was only Arizona, NM, and Mexico!!!
In my second paragraph above, I am not talking about Bronco Apaches. I am talking about "Bronco Natives" in general. I was talking about the northern tribes. It was the Nez Perce that headed into Canada, and some of them made it across the border. Also, I think the Lakotas were over that border for a while. Although most of them were forced to return to the USA - that doesn't prove that they all did. And also possible that tribes from southern parts of Canada did not fully give in to pressure. Meaning that wild Indians existed in the mountains of northern US and Canada, after people were officially settled. Ive got no proof of this, but it has to be a possibility.
|
|
|
Post by dT on Mar 6, 2015 11:54:40 GMT -5
Bronco Apaches ... Bronco Natives ... the last rays of the sun setting on the freedom of "wild" Native Americans. It must have been a sad and lonely existence for them. They chose to live in isolation and die that way - rather than to succumb to the values of a new civilization that invaded their world. We will never know their stories. It's just what I told Kayitah above ...
THEY are Spirits in the Wind.
dT
|
|
|
Post by jasper4 on Mar 6, 2015 16:29:01 GMT -5
yes, remaining Apaches lived in the wild. I suspect that some other "bronco natives" existed in the USA and Canada, after all the tribes were finally settled on reservations. For example, there is much room in the mountains of Canada, especially in the summer. Remnants of the New Perce might have gone there, and some other northern tribes and people from southern Canada. Not many, but some. who would know? A few free Native men and women existed for one more generation. You might say that it was the "last breath of air" for the freedom of wild Native tribes. Geronimo was trying to help this process ... whether you believe that he succeeded or not, really depends on your point of view. dT Canada....Really? ? //////// OTHER "bronco natives" existed in the USA and Canada as in other tribes as I read this
|
|
|
Post by jasper4 on Mar 6, 2015 16:32:08 GMT -5
NOT Geronimo in Canada. Hahahahahahaha! He was only Arizona, NM, and Mexico!!! In my second paragraph above, I am not talking about Bronco Apaches. I am talking about "Bronco Natives" in general. I was talking about the northern tribes. It was the Nez Perce that headed into Canada, and some of them made it across the border. Also, I think the Lakotas were over that border for a while. Although most of them were forced to return to the USA - that doesn't prove that they all did. And also possible that tribes from southern parts of Canada did not fully give in to pressure. Meaning that wild Indians existed in the mountains of northern US and Canada, after people were officially settled. Ive got no proof of this, but it has to be a possibility. example I when on the pine ridge and standing rock heard tales of lakota who never came back from cananda even after sitting bull did. oral hostory or tales of Broncos who never gave in or had no need of the bluecoats and their crooked ways.
|
|
|
Post by jasper4 on Mar 6, 2015 16:32:55 GMT -5
I Found This Information on Casas Grandes Chihuahua I Apologize for the quick translation. Free latest apache in Chihuahua was a woman ** "Indian" is, today, a legend in Casas Grandes. THE CHRONICLE OF CHIHUAHUA November 12, 2011 By Froilan Meza Rivera Casas Grandes, Chih.- The latest issue of free Apaches and land fighters in Chihuahua, was captured almost fifty years ago in the foothills of the Sierra Madre. It was a woman who was made a slave, sold in marriage to a villager in Jovales, and who has since never issued a single word in mind of a rebellion against his captors in the extreme. "Indian" is, today, a legend in Casas Grandes. Still in the forties of the Twentieth Century, people saw spoke of surprise and occasional encounters with the remnants of decaying Apache bands. Fifty years after the Mexican army to expel the last Apaches Chihuahuan territory, and likewise they had surrendered in the United States heads the last rebel Apaches! It is known that after the death of Captain Juh, many Apaches were scattered, and went back to impregnable places they knew. They were called "broncos Indians," many of whom managed to find in rural communities without express their true ethnic ascendancy. Only a few survivors to social debacle that ended his village, formed small roving bands hiding and went desbalagadas in the mountains. By the direction of the mountains between Wood and Casas Grandes, was in the forties unconfirmed rumor, that a "savage" Indian woman wandered Jovales population. They had seen, they said, by the Mesa del Gavilan. Who was naked and riding "to mop" equal bronco horse she. Chased two individuals who decided to hunt. This story is told Jorge Cordero Lurueña , who studies the life and history of the original ethnic groups in these lands. At one time, the persecutors harassed women and cornered, so it was only him deep into the now named in his memory as "Peak of India". He went and hid there, but one of the hunters stood there, at the foot of the peak, to see that not escape, while the other went to ask for help ". Several came to participate in the capture of India, and went with the hope of gain, because he has to tell the reader still in those years it was used the "broncos" Indians who were captured, were sold as slaves to whom wanted acquire. Tied hand and foot, the woman was taken to the town of Jovales, where he was exposed to the curiosity of the people. Nobody could touch, and several men were beaten and tried to rape her away from her violently. Women they pleased, they said, because I was naked from the waist up, but by dint of bites, scratches and kicks, no one could "tame". They treated her like a wild horse in corral. "There they kill", decided after several failed attempts to sell, because nobody cared to take her home, given its ferocity. But at the last moment Mr. Francisco "Chico" Sandoval, arrived and announced that he would take with him to India. Something happened inside that room when the man's gaze locked with hers. Suddenly the face of the apache woman and became distended, to grimace in serene face. "un tie her" ordered "Chico" Sandoval sellers, while depositing silver coins that had asked them to change the slave. "Do Not. You'll kill. Better than hang them in the square, "said one of the hunters. But at the insistence of the buyer, will eventually loosen his bonds with caution. All fears were unfounded because the more docile way the apache drifted Indian arm of the man who loved her companion at home. Francisco Sandoval made her his wife and took her several children, who joined the ladder with that man already had, because he was a widower. Apache Indian was an exemplary mother not only for the children themselves, but for the children of widower and his late wife, and a good wife and homemaker. The only "but" they put him was that never spoke again. Cordero Lurueña refers to a Martin Sandoval, who is living grandson of the Apache woman. And we know that other grandchildren of her and don "Chico" live today in Colorado. In 1986 traveled with group from mescalero and okla into old mexico and met some Nde whom had adapted to life as mexicans or had kept their traditional ways of the old days. This article is a insightful and good piece. Alas to travel down there woukd be very dangerous or one would need security force from the bandidios or corrupt govt types.
|
|
chi1
New Member
Posts: 39
|
Post by chi1 on Mar 7, 2015 21:00:17 GMT -5
I live around, probably as locals we found the way to lead with it. But if sometime you need help do not hesitate to let me know
|
|
|
Post by mark2dgs on Jun 28, 2017 15:26:58 GMT -5
Chi1,- I shure hope You see this message: I am very interested in making kontakt with You. I am doing research on all of the above in this thread and a fieldtrip is in the making for this coming november 2017. My email is: marksalters@outlook.com
|
|
chi1
New Member
Posts: 39
|
Post by chi1 on Jun 28, 2017 16:48:25 GMT -5
Message received, I'll get in contact.
|
|
|
Post by dT on Jun 30, 2017 9:30:46 GMT -5
You need to be VERY careful down there. i just saw a news article recently. The narcotraffickers in Mexico are eliminating native settlements ... esp. affecting the Tarahumara, but other tribes too.
Stop and ask yourself one question. If the Indians in Mexico cannot survive the drug violence in their own homeland, then what chance do you have? Seriously, you might make it. But you might not. Definitely you would need the assistance of an Indian guide, and that person would need to be very trustworthy. Otherwise ... you are an easy mark for the criminals.
dT
|
|
juan
Junior Member
Posts: 56
|
Post by juan on Jul 22, 2017 6:03:37 GMT -5
Hello I bought both books they are all good. But Neil's book is better because he went to where is dad went to and has drawings and maps the German author to me kind of repeated and added some other stuff but they are outstanding. I am retired and I plan to go there people say it is dangerous to travel. If you Google the locations there is Federal there on check points so you know that there is bad people there. But I do plan to go to vavispe
|
|
juan
Junior Member
Posts: 56
|
Post by juan on Jul 22, 2017 8:20:47 GMT -5
I join this forum few months ago, and I haven't read all posts, I just start reading this post today and I can see a lot of interesting comments, I'm not sure if you still interested or feeding this forum that was started on 2011, I see some comments up to 2013, but if you want to continue it, I can contribuite with few things, I'm actually living on Chihuahua state and I know several of the ancient sacred lands, still a lot of them more to visit, hope I can do it on my lifetime, somethings you mentioned on this forum is about Lipan Apaches, first, they are still visiting and settled on Mexico but basically on the Coahuila state to the east of Chihuahua specially to Muzquiz Coahuila, Muzquiz is the last name of a General/Governor of Coahuila, but some of their relatives (Miguel Muzquiz father of Alstate Mother Lipan) were taken by the Lipans and actually on Mezcalero reservation you can find descendance, such as Sara Misquez, Muzquiz such as lot of words that deteriorated by the pronunciation of names in Spanish written by Americans in English according to their phonetic, well, not much Lipans on Chihuahua but Coahuila's. On Chihuahua there were Mezcaleros on the east, Chihenes on North Central, Nednais or Nendais and ChoKonen (Chokohonde-Jocomes) On the West and down south to sierra madre, Gulkahendeh On central and south Chihuahua... Pronounciations vary depending if in mexican-spanish english, or spaniards like Jocomes written by father Eusebio Kino on the 1700's... Well, In my opinion Regarding to Kayitah four possibilities: 1.-They might have been absorbed by other tribes of the area, maybe even by former enemies. Yaqui? Tarahumara? Opata? YES SOME OF THEM. 2.-It's also possible that they were eventually hunted down by Tarahumaras and mexican troops. If so, the surviving men and women may have been sent to prisons in Chihuahua or Sonora, or sold into slavery and prostitution, while the children were given into mexican foster homes/families. YES A LOT OF THEM, BUT A LOT CHILDREN AND WOMEN WERE ALSO KILLED, EVEN MORE SAD. BUT MAINLY BY MEXICAN TROOPS MORE THAN BY TARAHUMARAS, THEY WERE ALSO SLAVES OF THE MEXICAN TROOPS NOT THE CASE OF MAURICIO CORREDOR, HE WAS MORE ASSIMILATED TO MEXICANS THAN TARAHUMARAS.(MEXICAN TROOPS MEANS MOST WHITES DESCENDANT OF SPANIARDS)AND DON'T FORGET US TROOPS AND APACHE SCOUTS. 3.-The third theory is that they eventually gave up their traditional way of life and became vaqueros and farmers like their former mexican raiding victims. Could be that some of them took that route. MOST OF THEM BECAME FARMERS, BUT DIDN'T GAVE UP TRADITIONS AT ALL, WAY OF LIFE YES, BUT YOU CAN STILL SEE TRACES OF CEREMONIES, FOODS, WORDS, CLOTHING, DANCE ETC. AND THEY BECAME FARMERS BECAUSE THE US WOULD MAKE THEM PRISONERS AND MEXICANS WANT TO ANNIHILATE THEM, SO THEY HIDE BETWEEN MEXICANS(INDIANS ASSIMILATED TO MEXICAN LIFESTYLE, BIG PERCENTAGE OF NDEH "CONVERTED" TO MEXICANS SINCE THE PRESIDIOS ERA) NOT MUCH MIXTURE WITH WHITES UNTIL MID 20TH CENTURY, MEXICO WAS VERY ELITIST ON SOCIAL CLASSES AND RACES. 4.-Now the fourth possibility is my favorite one, and probably wishful thinking. What if they are still there, living as peaceful nomads, hunters and gatherers, in the vast Sierra Madre? NICE BUT NOT FOR MUCH TIME! THEY EVENTUALLY BECAME "MEXICANS". My Family is from Colonia Victoria Municipality of Ascencion Chihuahua, is on midway between Janos and Santa Rita del Cobre, we have around Florida Mountains, Mimbres River end, Laguna de Guzman, Laguna de Santa Maria, Cañon de Boca Grande, Mountain el Espia or Frijolar and it was an apache settlement called Carrizalillo because it was people that previously were on Presidio el Carrizal. This place is 1 1/2 hour dirve from Janos and the beginig of Sierra Madre with Carcay Mountain (Word deteriorated the other way, from Athabascan to Spanish) or Carcaj Mountain. Places full of apache hystory. We are Red People. Now I'm living at Samalayuca and first thing I can see every day at wakeup is Sierra de la Candelaria Peak. If is of your interest I can have a list of places and events for the Nde on Chihuahua State specially Sierra Madre. and provide a lot more information. Just I don't know where to start. Regards. Hello I would be delighted to request information on places I can visit in reference to the Apache people from the past and present thanks email me at jopez2207@aol.com
|
|