A 144 challenge

[kayitah]

Men that can be excluded from consideration because they are otherwise identified in the same image:

Ahnandia
Yahnozha
Tissnolthtos
Chappo
Hunlona
Naiche
Geronimo


Men that can be excluded because of comparison with other photographs:

Beshe
Nah-bay
Laziyah
Kayitah
Perico
Kanseah
Moh-tsos
Zhonne


that leaves us with Fun, Martine and Kilth-di-gai. Personally, I somewhat don't think it's Martine or Fun, because both are shown wearing black leather boots instead of moccasins (like the man behind Naiche) in other photos from Fort Sam Houston. On the other hand, it could well be Fun, looking at the nose and how he wears his headband...

Would be interesting to hear your opinions...

Attachments:

[coeurrouge]

127 names, new photos (especially of the wifes and children)

Attachments:

[Dietmar]

I´m not the authority to help you further on... but great work coeurrouge!!

[josephine]

Hello Kayitah!

My opinion is that, the first apache on the left, sitting on the box, ( first photographed in front and then behind ) is Perico.

He took off his moccasins and put the boots.

[jeroen]

In my opinion, the man sitting on the box is indeed Laziyah, the same man sitting on the porch in the image series taken early september in Fort Bowie...

[coeurrouge]

Hello everyone and especially Gregor (Lutz),

I know what we are sharing is our History, passion or opinions and the reading for the others are free. If someone can use the informations written here on a book or other public sharing, it is great and everybody could be proud. And I will personnaly glad of that.

But the good behavior doing that, is to ask the permission of the People and on the book to mention this forum (like bibliography or in the thank you pages).

Gregor, we knowned better political relation between Germany and France than now. I do not think you do the right think writing your book without say anything to us and especially using the list I have done.

the links for the others.
books: books.google.ch/books?id=GrIrQOA8BocC&pg=PA65&hl=de&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Dietmar]

Hello coeurrouge,

sorry, I don´t have the book already, but I know that Gregor is probably not online the next couple of weeks. I´m going to send him a note.

Best wishes

Dietmar

[coeurrouge]

In carlisle' students idem, Naiche, I think, gave the proof that the wife I identied maybe as Beshade was in fact Beshade. Based on that I think the woman with her was her grandmother Bey-gin-shoos, widow of Victorio. The baby was certainly a children of Beshade. If was right some questions come to me :
1) Did Beshade surrendered with Mangus or was she captured in august by scoot?
2) Which man of the 144 list was her husband? A chihenne warrior who surrendered (Shoei, Nezulkide?...)or a chihenne warrior captured on december 1885 by the mexicans like Frijole?
3)Why the nedni family of Juh was with the Chihenne group of Mangus and not with the nedni group of Nat-cul-baye? It is often said that Mangus family and Juh family were relative, but by which way?

My idea is that, maybe, Beshade, grandaughter of Victorio and stepdaughter of Mangus, was married with the oldest son of Juh, Delzhinne, and the baby on the photo was their one.
On the photo Beshade wear a shot hair cut like she was mourning. (Delzhinne dying on mexican prison?).

Your guess?

[naiches2]

According to 'Apache Mothers and Daughters':
1)Beshad-e surrendered with her mother Dith-cley-ih and step-father Mangus.
2)Her first husband was Waldo Tsedekizen but at the moment of Geronimo campaign she was divorced.
3)Mangas was more 'quiet' than another 'rebels', and avoid clashes and looting.
Bey-gin-shoos wasn't grandmother of Beshad-e, and wasn't widow of Victorio. She was Mangus' aunt (possibly from mother' lineage)

[gregor]

Mon cher ami coeurrouge,

back from Arizona & New Mexico, I read your Post. Sorry, if I stepped on your toes. Yes, I wrote a little booklet of 140 pages about the Apache war captivity (about 80 pages text, 20 pages listing with comments, 20 pages short bios and notes - and I started 3 years ago) . My Intention was to keep the memory of the event and the people alive, particular here in Germany, where is little known about the Apache war captivity.
To be honest, I never thought that the Data of a List , which has been collected by the US Army/Government and published in smaller or bigger parts by different writers in the past - e.g. Lummis (1886), Sabin (Doku Novel / 1918), Opler (1938), Thrapp (1967), Faulk (1969), Sonnichsen (1986), Ball (1988), Turcheneske (1997), Debo (1976 / !), Kraft (2000 / !), Gatewood / Kraft (1880ies/ 2005), Stockel (2006), Sweeney (2012) and others - could cause trouble.
By the Way, I quoted my sources (including . But I See your point, it would have been better to ask. Mea culpa. Sorry.
Wasn’t it Picasso, who said: To copy is the highest form of recognition? Mail me your Adress and I send you a copy of the Book to restore l'amitié français-allemand (the french-german friendship). Gregor

[coeurrouge]

apologies accepted. Your sources are quoted, if fined too me enough. I will try to send you a personnal message by this forum.

[coeurrouge]

Hello,

After reading "From fort marion to fort sill" I advanced on the 144 list. I think it misses 6 persons and around 10 names:

Naiche's group:(23 p., 9w&tb)

Naiche (29) , younger son of Cochise and nephew of Mangas, surrendered on september 1886 to Miles.
*Nah-De-Yole (27) , daughter of Skinya - Paul (6) , taken as hostages on january 1886 by Maus- ?
*E-Clah-Eh (26) , great grandaughter of Mahko- Deh-Kluh-Kizhee (8)/Dorothy , Bah-Nas-Kli (1) ,? surrendered on march 1886 to Crook
*Ha-O-Zinne (20?) , surrendered on september 1886 to Miles
Beshe (69) , father of Ha-O-Zinne, surrendered on september 1886 to Miles
*Tascelona (60?) , captured on august 1885 by scouts
*U-Go-Hun (57) , mother of Ha-O-Zinne and Zhonne, surrendered on september 1886 to Miles
Atelnietze (37) , first cousin of Naiche (Cochise's sister side ?),
* 2 wife (name, age?)- Satsitnitsu (14?) -?
Yanozha (31) , first cousin of Naiche (Cochise's brother Juan side?), surrendered on september 1886 to Miles
* ?(18) , surrendered on september 1886 to Miles -?
Zhonne (20) , half-brother of Ha-O-Zinne, single, surrendered on september 1886 to Miles
Hunlona (20) , nephew of Beshe, surrendered on september 1886 to Miles
*Dolan (17?), Bessie (2) captured on august 1885 by scouts
Tah-Ni-Toe (30) , surrendered on may 1886 at San Carlos
(*E-Dood-Lah (27) and family at San Carlos.)
Kanseah (15) , orderly of Yanozha, surrendered on september 1886
to Miles
Ezhunna (8) , orphan, surrendered on march 1886 to Crook

Chihuahua's group: (37 p., 11 w&tb)

Kla-Esh (53)/Chihuahua , surrendered on march 1886 to Crook
* 1 wife (name,age?) – Baeta-hichan/Ramona(11) captured on june 1885 by scouts
* 1 wife (name,age?) , sister of Ilth-Gazie- 1boy (5),Mable?(?) , 1 baby (1) captured on june 1885 by scouts
* Ilth-Gazie (31) - Hardcase,Eugene (5?) , Tom (1) , captured on june 1885 by scouts
* 1 mother in law (name,age?), killed on june 1885 by scouts
Ulzana (55) , brother of Chihuahua, surrendered on march 1886 at Crook
*Nah-Ish-Lah (25) - Pel-Coy (14) - ?, surrendered on march 1886 at Crook
*Nah-Zis-Eh (?)- Adam (8) , child (name,age?), captured on june 1885 by scouts
Cathla (45) , surrendered on march 1886 at Crook
(*Nah-Nah-Tsee(?)-Nellie Gray (12) , stayed at San Carlos.)
Nah-Do-Zinne (30) , surrendered on march 1886 at Crook
*Ee-Lodl-Lahm (?) - 1 baby?, surrendered on march 1886 at Crook
Sta-Losh (40) ,surrendered on march 1886 at Crook
*Dishtel (?)-Be-kiva (9),
Eskinye (?) ,surrendered on march 1886 at Crook
*?-?
Itsah-Dee-Tsa(35)/José Second , surrendered on march 1886 at Crook
*Juana (?)- Kukah (?)
Tsinolthtos (19) , surrendered on september 1886 at Miles
* Oh-Kis-Say (17) , surrendered on september 1886 at Miles
Dodostenay (16) , nephew of Chihuahua?, surrendered on march 1886 at Crook
Jolsannie (16), son of Ulzana, killed on june 1885 by scouts.
Counteza/ future Hulda Kinzhuna (17?) , Taz-Ay-Slath’s sister or cousin ?, captured on august 1885
by scouts
Nes-Chila (?) , relative of Dos-Te-Seh (mother of Naiche)- Tsikahada (15) , (name,2?) captured on june 1885 by scouts

Geronimo's group : (28p., 8w&tb)

Goyaklay (62)/Geronimo , grandson of Mahko, surrendered on september 1886 at Miles
*Chee-Hashkish(50?) - captured on august 1885 by scouts
*She-Ga (35) -Little Robe (2)died on september 1885, 1 girl (name,age?),?, surrendered on september 1886 at Miles
*Shtsha-He(?),killed on august 1886 by Mexicans-?
*Taz-Ay-Slath/Zi-Yeh/Marionneta (25?) -Fenton (5) , captured on august 1885 by scouts
Ischi (33)/Perico , son of Nas-Ti-Dah and second cousin of Geronimo, surrendered on september 1886 at Miles
*Ha-Dun-Key(30) -Harry (2-3) , captured on august 1885 by scouts
Yahe-Chul (19)/Fun , half brother of Perico, surrendered on september 1886 at Miles
*Tah-Tzil-Toey (21) , surrendered on september 1886 at Miles
Tsinah (21) , brother of Fun, surrendered on march 1886 at Crook
* Loozah (17) , captured on august 1885 by scouts
Ahnandia (25) , second cousin of Geronimo, surrendered on september 1886 at Miles
(*her wife Dahn( ?) with Bish-da-was-la/James (3) at San Carlos)
*Tas-De-The (25) -?, surrendered on september 1886 at Miles
Moh-Tsos (35) , surrendered on september 1886 at Miles
(*her wife Bash-De-Le-Hi (39) with Beygilcleyih (13), Bailtso (10), Archie(1) at San Carlos.)
*Nah-Zitz-Ohn (20 ?) , captured on august 1885 by scouts
Dah-Ke-Ya (24) , surrendered on march 1886 at Crook
*Dohn-Say (20) , daughter of Geronimo- Nina (4?) , captured on august 1885 by scouts
Chappo (19) , son of Geronimo, surrendered on september 1886 at Miles
* Nochlon (15) , surrendered on september 1886 at Miles
*2 women and 1 boy killed on august 1885 by scouts,
Garditha (12 ?) , surrendered on september 1886 at Miles.

Chihennes' group : (33p., 12 w&tb)

Kas-Tziden (85)/Nana , brother in law of Delgadito?, taken as hostage on january 1886
*Nah-Dos-Te (66) , sister of Geronimo, taken as hostage on january 1886
apache name? (39)/Mangas , son of Mangas Coloradas and uncle of Naiche, surrendered on october 1886 at Miles
*Tze-Gu-Jun (38)/Huera -?, captured on august 1885 by scouts
*Dilth-Cleyhen (37) , daughter of Victorio- Besha-De (18) -Chestuen (13) stepdaughters of Mangas - Cora (12) - Tsil-Toe/Franck (9), surrendered on october 1886 at Miles
*Bey-Gin-Shoos (65) , aunt of Mangas, surrendered on october 1886 at Miles
Pet-Zahn (40?)/Frijole , captured on december 1885 and died after on Mexico city
*?-?
Chinche (35), brother of Ponce and nephew of Cochise?, killed on march 1886 by Mexican cow-boys
*Cah-Gah-Ahsky (20)surrendered on may 1885 at San Carlos - 1 baby boy kidnapped by cow-boys on may 1885, adopted after by Martine
Nachol (?),captured on december 1885 and died after on Mexico city
*?-?
Nezulkide (39) , brother of Kaathenay, surrendered on march 1886 at Crook
*1wife(?) -1boy (1)
Shoie (?) ,surrendered on march 1886 at Crook
(* ? – Pauline (6) at San Carlos.)
Eskinilteze (60?), son of Delgadito, surrendered on october 1886 at Miles
*Mangigan (34)-Louie (6)- Carlos (4)
Len-Sey(20?) ,single, surrendered on march 1886 at Crook
Seltoe(18?) , surrendered on march 1886 at Crook
*Kayitah’s sister
Goso (17),single, son of Choneska ?, surrendered on october 1886 at Miles
Delzhinne (20?) , son of Juh,single, captured on december 1885 and died after on Mexico city
*Ish-Key (60) mother of Daklugie, widow of Juh and second cousin of Geronimo, surrendered on october 1886 at Miles
*second widow of Juh?(name,age?) captured on december 1885 and died after on Mexico city
Daklegon (15), half or brother of Delzhinne, son of Juh, captured on december 1885 and died after on Mexico city
Daklugie (13) , half or brother of Delzhinne, son of Juh, surrendered on october 1886 at Miles
Istee (13) son of Victorio, surrendered on october 1886 at Miles

Nednis' Group: (17p., 6 w&tb)

Nat-Cul-Baye (60?)/José Maria Elias
*E-Jo-Nah (51) -Alchintoyeh (10) , ?, surrendered on september 1886 at Miles
*1 wife (name,age?)-?
La-Zi-Yah (45) , surrendered on september 1886 at Miles
*1 wife (name?,35?) -?, surrendered on september 1886 at Miles
Nah-Bay (40?) , brother of La-Zi-Yah, surrendered on september 1886 at Miles
* 1 wife (name,40?)-1 girl (name?,1), surrendered on september 1886 at Miles
Nezegochin (36) , Taken hostage in january 1886 ? and surrendered on march 1886 at Crook
* Ni-Yah (35) - Nahn-Ichkiah (9), Lo-Shanne (leosanni) (6 ?) surrendered on september 1886 at Miles, Chachee (4) Taken hostage in january 1886 ?
Kilthdigai,NahTeen-Esn/Harold Dick ? (42) , surrendered on september 1886 at Miles
*Nah-Zoo-Un(42?) -? captured on august 1885 by scouts
Azariquelch (19)/Zachia, nephew of Juh?, single killed on november 1885 by White Mountain Apache

What's new ?
*Hunlona seemed to be married with Dolan Staloshat this time and Bessie was already borned
*Stalosh seemed to be married with Disthel at this time and Bekiva (I think they were on the women's group photo) was their daughter
*Looking at the faces of Counteza and Hulda Kinzhuna, i have concluded that their were the same person
*Looking at the faces of Tsikahada and Neschila's daughter, they seemed to be the same person.
*it seemed that Tazayslath, Marionneta and Ziyeh would be the same wife ?
*Cheehaskish, as I undertsand the book, was captured on august 1885 and died in Fort Marion before seing again Geronimo. She maybe identified as Marionneta on the women's photos.
*Definitively Nezulkide was the man with the cap and died soon after surrendered. I think his wife and their son were on the women's group photo
*Eskinilteze seemed to be married with Mangigan at this time and Louie and Carlos were their sons
*Seltoe was married to Kayitah's sister at this time.
*it seemed that Ish-Key and Ishton would be the same person.
*Nezegochin was married with Niyah at this time and Nahnichkiah, Chachee and Loshanne were their children, and without explanantion Loshanne was separated from her parents in march 1886.
*I think Harold Dick was Kildighai.

What do you think about that ? Another question : Gahtchisen was Tsikahada's father or mother?

[kayitah]

Thanks for doing all this work, my friend, I very much appreciate it. I haven't gone through my information so I can't say anything about the other of your new findings, but

- Nezulkide was 5'10, the same height as Adilnadzid. So if the man at center (Fly photograph) is Adilnadzid as we have tentatively identified him to be, the man with the cap (who is much shorter) can't be Nezulkide. If anything, the tall man at center (so far identified as Adilnadzid) could be Nezulkide instead of Adilnadzid... Without and new and/or better photographs it continues to be a guessing game... sadly.

[naiches2]

Sept 22, 2013 10:51:20 GMT -5 kayitah said:

Thanks for doing all this work, my friend, I very much appreciate it. I haven't gone through my information so I can't say anything about the other of your new findings, but

Good say!
PS. 1. Counteza is Hulda Kinzhuna - doubtfully what Hulda was at warpath, because Kinzhuna was a scout in 1886.
2. The identity of Eskinilteze and Ishkeyehahtsonzeh are without evidence.
3. Kilthdigai is Harold Dick - WHY??
Kilthdigai is man with Geronimo and Harold Dick was a scout the all the way.
Cite from Sweeney "Cochise to Geronimo" p. 327:"Lt. Britton Davis, ten Apache scouts and Chiricahua volunteeers" ("three of their best men", Kaydazhinne, Tah-ni-toe, and Nahn-tee-nesn) to help Davis" or "One Chiricahua scout, Nahn-tee-nesn (Long Loins), a relative of Chihuahua" from p. 452. I believe to Sweeney!
Enough.

[coeurrouge]

Sept 22, 2013 13:41:49 GMT -5 naiches2 said:

Sept 22, 2013 10:51:20 GMT -5 kayitah said:

Thanks for doing all this work, my friend, I very much appreciate it. I haven't gone through my information so I can't say anything about the other of your new findings, but

Good say!
PS. 1. Counteza is Hulda Kinzhuna - doubtfully what Hulda was at warpath, because Kinzhuna was a scout in 1886.
2. The identity of Eskinilteze and Ishkeyehahtsonzeh are without evidence.
3. Kilthdigai is Harold Dick - WHY??
Kilthdigai is man with Geronimo and Harold Dick was a scout the all the way.
Cite from Sweeney "Cochise to Geronimo" p. 327:"Lt. Britton Davis, ten Apache scouts and Chiricahua volunteeers" ("three of their best men", Kaydazhinne, Tah-ni-toe, and Nahn-tee-nesn) to help Davis" or "One Chiricahua scout, Nahn-tee-nesn (Long Loins), a relative of Chihuahua" from p. 452. I believe to Sweeney!
Enough.

For the 3, I apologize, I was too fast. You are right Naiche. But I do not find a Kildighai and an Eskinye on "fort marion to fort sill" book.

for the 1, I think Counteza was from Tazaytlha family, a sister or a cousin and follow her on the warpath. I think she married Kinzhuna when they were POW. Look carefully Hulda at figure 38 on the book and compare to Counteza.I can not put photos to show my thought.