A 144 challenge

[coeurrouge]

Who were the 144 Chiricahuas who leave the San carlos reservation on may 1885?

I make a list of 105 people but I have not information for some names, age, relationship and it misses 39 peoples.
I will direct the list like this
warrior or teenage boy name (age on 1885)/usefull name, family link, information if it happened something for this people during 1885,1886 life
*wife name (age on 1885)-children names (age on 1885)of the couple (age).
The ? mean that it maybe misses something.

I need you to complete or modify this list. if so, please copy the list and write the modification, thanks.

This is my incomplete list :(p.people,w&tb:warrior and teenage boy)

Naiche's group :(18 p., 8w&tb)

Naiche (29), younger son of Cochise and nephew of Mangas.
*Nah-De-Yole (27), daughter of Skinya - Paul (4) , ?
*E-Clah-Eh (?) - Dorothy (8?), Bas-Ha-kli (1),?
*Ha-O-Zinne (15)
Beshe (50?), father of Ha-O-Zinne
*Tascelona (45?)
*U-Go-Hun (40?), mother of Ha-O-Zinne
Atelnietze (37), first cousin of Naiche (Cochise's sister side ?)
* 1 wife (name, age?)-?
Yanozha (31), first cousin of Naiche (Cochise's brother Juan side?)
* 1 wife (name?, 20)-?
Zhonne (20), half-brother of Ha-O-Zinne, single
Hunlona (20), nephew of Beshe,single
Tah-Ni-Toe (?), family at San Carlos.
Kanseah (15), orderly of Yanozha

Chihuahua's group: (26 p., 11 w&tb)
Kla-Esh (63)/Chihuahua
* 1 wife (name,age?)- Ramona (10-14?)
* 1 wife (name,age?)- Eugene (6-10?)
* Ilth-Gazie (25?)- Osceola (3?), Harcase (6?)
* 1 mother in law (name,age?), killed on june 1885 by scouts
Ulzana (66), brother of Chihuahua
*Nah-Ish-Lah (?)-?
*Nah-Zis-EH (?)- 2 children (name,age?)
Cathla (55?)
*?-?
Nah-Do-Zinne (?)
*?-?
Shoie (?)
*?-?
Ni-Losh (?)
*?-?
Eskinye (?)
*?-?
Lidos-Nigi? (?)/José Second
*?-?
Dodostenay (?), nephew of Chihuahua?
Jolsannie (16), son of Ulzana, killed on june 1885 by scouts.
*2 women Nes-chila (30?)-1 girl (name,12?), 1 boy(5?)
Counteza (20?)

Geronimo's group : (27 p., 8 w&tb)
Goyaklay (62)/Geronimo, grandson of Mahko
*Mañonetta(?)-?
*She-Ga (35)-Little Robe (2)died on 09/1885, 1 girl (name,age?),?
*Shatsha he(?),killed on august 1886-?
*Zi-Yeh (?)-Fenton (2)
*Tay-Ay-Slath (25?)-1 boy (name,5?)
Apache name? (33)/Perico, son of Gordo and second cousin of Geronimo
*Ha-Dun-Key(?)-?
Yahe-Chul (19)/Fun, half brother of Perico
*1 wife (name,19?)
Tsina (21), brother of Fun
* ?-?
Ahnandia (25), second cousin of Geronimo
*Tas-De-The (20)-?
Moh-Tsos (35)
*1 wife (name,age?)
Dah-Ke-Ya (25?)
*Dohn-Say (22?), daughter of Geronimo- 1 girl (name?,3?)
Chappo (20), son of Geronimo
* Nochlon (14)
*2 women and 1 boy killed on august 1885 by scouts.

Chihennes' group : (23 p., 14 w&tb)
Kas-Tziden (85)/Nana, brother in law of Delgadito?
*Nah-Dos-Te (65?), sister of Geronimo
apache name? (39)/Mangas, son of Mangas Coloradas and uncle of Naiche
*Tze-Gu-Jun (40?)/Huera-?
*Dilth-Cleyhen (37), daughter of Victorio-?- Istee (10?)son of Victorio
*widow of Victorio ?(name,age?)
Pet-Zahn (?)/Frijole, captured 12/1885 and died after on Mexico city
*?-?
Chinche (35), brother of Ponce and nephew of Cochise?, killed 03/1886
*Cah-Gah-Ahsky (?)- 1 baby boy kidnapped by cow-boys 05/1885
Nachol (?), captured 12/1885 and died after on Mexico city
*?-?
Nezulkide (30?), brother of Kaathenay
*?-?
Eskinilteze (60?), son of Delgadito
*?-?
Len-Sey(20?),single
Seltoe(18?),single
Goso (17),single
Delzhinne (20?), son of Juh,single, captured 12/1885 and died after on Mexico city
*mother?(name,age)captured 12/1885 and died after on Mexico city?
*second widow of Juh?(name,age?)captured 12/1885 and died after on Mexico city?
Daklegon (15), half or brother of Delzhinne, son of Juh,captured 12/1885 and died after on Mexico city
Daklugie (14?), half or brother of Delzhinne, son of Juh
Franck Mangus (14?), son of Mangas and Dilth-Cleyhen

Nednis' Group: (11 p., 6 w&tb)
Nat-Cul-Baye (60?)/José Maria Elias
*Dejonah (?)-?
*1 wife (name,age?)-?
La-Zi-Yah (40?)
*1 wife (name?,35?)-?
Nah-Bay (45?), brother of La-Zi-Yah
* 1 wife (name,40?)-1 girl (name?,1)
Nezegochin (?)
*?-?
Kilthdigai (35)
*?-?
Azariquelch (19)/Zachia, nephew of Juh?, killed on november 1885,single

[jeroen]

Great attempt! I have to check my own notes to find additions... Also, we should try to find as many faces with these names as possible...

[naiches2]

Good work, coeurrouge!
I think that:
1. Cathla age is about 45 years.
2. Moh-tsos' wife name is Bash-de-le-hi (1846-1907).
3. Dohn-Say is a Lulu Geronimo (1865-1898), daughter of Geronimo and Chee-hash-kish.
And why do you think Lidos-Nigi and José Second is same man?

[coeurrouge]

On the photo in Fort Marion of Chihuahua and his warrior, it missed on man, Tsina. We are sured of that. from tha name list, José Second does not appear. But 2 names, Lidos-Nigi and Petr that I read (or try) are not in the list of Chihuahua warrior on sweeney book. The Petr boy seems too young to be José Second so... It is more a feeling than a proof....

[coeurrouge]

For Moht-sos, I talk about the woman, he left with not his wife (Bash-de-le-hi )and his children, he abandoned (she did not want to go with him) at San Carlos.

[naiches2]

Feb 1, 2011 12:58:17 GMT -5 coeurrouge said:

On the photo in Fort Marion of Chihuahua and his warrior, it missed on man, Tsina. We are sured of that. from tha name list, José Second does not appear. But 2 names, Lidos-Nigi and Petr that I read (or try) are not in the list of Chihuahua warrior on sweeney book. The Petr boy seems too young to be José Second so... It is more a feeling than a proof....

[naiches2]

Feb 1, 2011 13:02:38 GMT -5 coeurrouge said:

For Moht-sos, I talk about the woman, he left with not his wife (Bash-de-le-hi )and his children, he abandoned (she did not want to go with him) at San Carlos.

I'll agree ;D (Sweeney, 'From Cochise to Geronimo' , p.647)

[perico]

Jose Seconds apache name is Itsah-dee-tsa.

[perico]

Where did you find this information? This is incorrect:

Apache name? (33)/Perico, son of Gordo and second cousin of Geronimo

His father was not Gordo. His father is Nas-ti-dah. He had a different mother than Fun, Tsisnah, Jozhe (Tzo-tzen), and Jah-ken-ish-ishen.= (Black Girl).

[coeurrouge]

Thanks,
My list needs sharing and debates to be exhaustive as possible.

The information (son of Gordo) came from the new book of Sweeney "From Cochise to Geronimo". Gordo (Mexican name) was a 60-70 year old Bedonkohe Chief in 1881. He was killed at Aliso Creek on april 1882.

Who was Nas-ti-dah (history, rank, family link)? And could it be the Native name of Gordo?
By the way, is Perico an apache name?

[perico]

Nas-ti-deh died at San Carlos before 1885. Gordo is someone different. Some people say Gordo and Fatty were the same person. Others say Gordo was the father of Fatty. Perico is a spanish word meaning parrot. The onlyl other info I have on Nas-ti-deh is that he was Bedonko.

[coeurrouge]

How was called Perico (apache name) by Chiricahuas?

[perico]

He was named Perico by Mexicans he used to play with as a child. I have seen his apache name written once. It means white horse.

[jeroen]

Gordo and Fatty were definitely not one and the same person, Gordo died as stated above in 1882, and he was Bedonkohe, while Fatty, a Nednhi, survived...

[kayitah]

Didn't Fatty go to exile in florida with the other Chiricahuas? At least did Gordo die years before, I think he was killed but will look for the text passage...