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Post by coeurrouge on Feb 28, 2011 12:53:28 GMT -5
Thanks, where do you find this photo?
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Post by naiches2 on Feb 28, 2011 14:16:52 GMT -5
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Post by jeroen on Mar 1, 2011 8:15:47 GMT -5
The name Hustianney comes up once in a while, but I have not been able to find any info about him... it may be another name of one of the known men in the 144 group, or one of the unknown men who fled San Carlos in 1885... if so, what happened to him?
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Post by coeurrouge on Mar 1, 2011 15:32:59 GMT -5
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Post by coeurrouge on Mar 1, 2011 15:48:25 GMT -5
Ejonah was wife of Naculbaye so Alcintoyeh, her son, was son of Naculbaye, not of Atelnietze ?!! Ejonah was mother of Alcintoyeh, it is sure ! if Dejonah=Ejonah, then Natculbaye was father of the boy. But Ejonah was buried at Fort Sill, so she, unlike her husband, surrendered to US Army: captured on august 1885? Hostage on january 1886? with her son on september 1886?
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Post by jeroen on Mar 1, 2011 16:25:41 GMT -5
thank you for the link... actually got tears in my eyes... all those young people.... also a lot of new names... If Dejonah did not leave with her husband (and it would make sense that she'd stay with her son) than she most likely surrendered with Naiche and Geronimo in September 1886... do you agree?
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Post by coeurrouge on Mar 1, 2011 16:46:14 GMT -5
I do not know because all the women who surrendered with Geronimo seemed to be with their husband. So maybe she was with the 9 hostage of january. i do not think she was captured on august 1885. after Natculbaye must let his son going to her mother on september 1886.
It is hard to know, maybe Utley will can to get a name for all the hostages of January.
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Post by jeroen on Mar 1, 2011 16:56:50 GMT -5
Yes, I think most, if not all, of the hostages were Chihennes, followers of Nana who was among the hostages... and they were likely among those in Chihuahua's group later on, as there were no Chihennes with Geronimo and Naiche (there was Mangus's small group of course, but there seems to have been little or no contact with the other Chiricahuas)
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Post by naiches2 on Mar 1, 2011 18:14:17 GMT -5
O Yeah, this is really gold mine for Chiricahua Apache studies!. I work on 500 challenge - All Apaches in Exodus. It will help me. Thank you, Courenrouge! Naiches PS. and very sad see all this tombs. Like after shooting down or bombing...
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Post by naiches2 on Mar 2, 2011 5:46:31 GMT -5
new arrivals for LIST: Mangas' band is Mangas, Ira Goso (young man), Fit-a-Hat (aged Mescalero, died on the route to Florida), Ditlth-cleyhen (Mangas' wife), Besha-de (Ditlth-cleyhen's daugther from 1st husband; wife Waldo Sundayman (Tsedekizen) in this time, and later Borgia Aanitso (died 1898), and later Abner Kozine , and after his death - Arnold Kinzhuma), Frank Mangas (Ditlth-cleyhen and Mangas'son), Asa Daklugie and 3 children (one is Cora Mangas (1876-1903), and Faith Mangas (? -d.1894) and her sister Flora (? -d.1894), perhaps).
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Post by coeurrouge on Mar 5, 2011 6:30:40 GMT -5
Fourth Round, 115 people
Naiche's group: (20 p., 8w&tb) Naiche (29) , younger son of Cochise and nephew of Mangas, surrendered on september 1886 to Miles. *Nah-De-Yole (27), daughter of Skinya - Paul (4) , taken as hostage on january 1886 by Maus- ? *E-Clah-Eh (24) - Dorothy (8?) surrendered on march 1886 to Crook, Bas-Na-Kli (1),? *Ha-O-Zinne (20?) , surrendered on september 1886 to Miles Beshe (69) , father of Ha-O-Zinne, surrendered on september 1886 to Miles *Tascelona (60?) , captured on august 1885 by scouts *U-Go-Hun (57) , mother of Ha-O-Zinne, surrendered on september 1886 to Miles Atelnietze (37) , first cousin of Naiche (Cochise's sister side ?), * 2 wife (name, age?)- Satsitnitsu (14?)-? Yanozha (31) , first cousin of Naiche (Cochise's brother Juan side?), surrendered on september 1886 to Miles * 1 wife (name?, 20), surrendered on september 1886 to Miles -? Zhonne (20) , half-brother of Ha-O-Zinne, single, surrendered on september 1886 to Miles Hunlona (20) , nephew of Beshe,single, surrendered on september 1886 to Miles Tah-Ni-Toe (30), surrendered on may 1886 at San Carlos *E-Dood-Lah (27) and family at San Carlos. Kanseah (15) , orderly of Yanozha, surrendered on september 1886 to Miles
Chihuahua's group: (30 p., 11 w&tb) Kla-Esh (53)/Chihuahua , surrendered on march 1886 to Crook * Nes-Chila (?) - Ramona (11) , (name,2?) captured on june 1885 by scouts * 1 wife (name,age?) , sister of Ilth-Gazie- Eugene (9) , Mable?(?) captured on june 1885 by scouts * Ilth-Gazie (31) - Tom (1) , Hardcase (5?) , captured on june 1885 by scouts * 1 mother in law (name,age?), killed on june 1885 by scouts Ulzana (55) , brother of Chihuahua, surrendered on march 1886 at Crook *Nah-Ish-Lah (?)- Pel-Coy (10) - ?, surrendered on march 1886 at Crook *Nah-Zis-Eh (?)- 2 children (name,age?), captured on june 1885 by scouts Cathla (45) , surrendered on march 1886 at Crook *?-? Nah-Do-Zinne (30), surrendered on march 1886 at Crook *Ee-Lodl-Lahm (?)- ? Shoie (?),surrendered on march 1886 at Crook *?-? Ni-Losh (?),surrendered on march 1886 at Crook *?-? Eskinye (?),surrendered on march 1886 at Crook*?-? Itsah-Dee-Tsa(35)/José Second , surrendered on march 1886 at Crook *Juana (?)- Kukah (?) Tsinolthtos (19) , surrendered on september 1886 at Miles * Oh-Kis-Say (17), surrendered on september 1886 at Miles Dodostenay (14?), nephew of Chihuahua?, surrendered on march 1886 at Crook Jolsannie (16), son of Ulzana, killed on june 1885 by scouts. Counteza (20?) , Taz-Ay-Slath’s sister ?, captured on august 1885 by scouts
Geronimo's group : (28 p., 8 w&tb) Goyaklay (62)/Geronimo , grandson of Mahko, surrendered on september 1886 at Miles *Mañonetta(50?) -?, captured on august 1885 by scouts *She-Ga (35)-Little Robe (2)died on september 1885, 1 girl(name,age?),?, surrendered on september 1886 at Miles *Shatsha-He(?),killed on august 1886 by Mexicans-? *Zi-Yeh (20?) , captured on august 1885 by scouts -Fenton (2), taken as hostage on january 1886- ? *Taz-Ay-Slath (25?) -1 boy (name,5?) , captured on august 1885 by scouts Apache name(White Horse)? (33)/Perico , son of Nas-Ti-Dah and second cousin of Geronimo, surrendered on september 1886 at Miles *Ha-Dun-Key(30) -?, captured on august 1885 by scouts Yahe-Chul (19)/Fun , half brother of Perico, surrendered on september 1886 at Miles *Tah-Tzil-Toey (21), surrendered on september 1886 at Miles Tsinah (21) , brother of Fun, surrendered on march 1886 at Crook * ?-? Ahnandia (25) , second cousin of Geronimo, surrendered on september 1886 at Miles *Tas-De-The (25) -?, surrendered on september 1886 at Miles Moh-Tsos (35) , surrendered on september 1886 at Miles *her wife Bash-De-Le-Hi (39) with Archie(1) and 2 other children at San Carlos. *Nah-Zitz-Ohn (?) , captured on august 1885 by scouts Dah-Ke-Ya (24) *Dohn-Say (20) , daughter of Geronimo- Nina (4?), captured on august 1885 by scouts Chappo (19) , son of Geronimo, surrendered on september 1886 at Miles * Nochlon (15) , surrendered on september 1886 at Miles *2 women and 1 boy killed on august 1885 by scouts, *2 children with unknow parents Garditha (12 ?) , Leosanni (6 ?) , surrendered on september 1886 at Miles.
Chihennes' group : (25 p., 14 w&tb) Kas-Tziden (85)/Nana , brother in law of Delgadito?, taken as hostage on january 1886 *Nah-Dos-Te (66) , sister of Geronimo, taken as hostage on january 1886 apache name? (39)/Mangas , son of Mangas Coloradas and uncle of Naiche, surrendered on october 1886 at Miles *Tze-Gu-Jun (38)/Huera -?, captured on august 1885 by scouts *Dilth-Cleyhen (37), daughter of Victorio- Besha-De/Chestuen (12) stepdaughter of Mangas - Cora (12)- Franck (9), surrendered on october 1886 at Miles *Bey-Gin-Shoos (65), widow of Victorio and mother of Dilth-Cleyhen, surrendered on october 1886 at Miles Pet-Zahn (40?)/Frijole , captured on december 1885 and died after on Mexico city *?-? Chinche (35), brother of Ponce and nephew of Cochise?, killed on march 1886 by Mexican cow-boys *Cah-Gah-Ahsky (?)surrendered on may 1885 at San Carlos - 1 baby boy kidnapped by cow-boys on may 1885 Nachol (?),captured on december 1885 and died after on Mexico city*?-? Nezulkide (30?), brother of Kaathenay, surrendered on march 1886 at Crook *?-? Eskinilteze (60?), son of Delgadito, surrendered on october 1886 at Miles *?-? Len-Sey (20?),single, surrendered on march 1886 at Crook Seltoe (18?),single, surrendered on march 1886 at Crook Goso (17),single, surrendered on october 1886 at Miles Delzhinne (20?), son of Juh,single, captured on december 1885 and died after on Mexico city *Ish-Key (50?) mother of Daklugie ?, widow of Juh and second cousin of Geronimo, surrendered on october 1886 at Miles *second widow of Juh?(name,age?) captured on december 1885 and died after on Mexico city Daklegon (15), half or brother of Delzhinne, son of Juh, captured on december 1885 and died after on Mexico city Daklugie (13), half or brother of Delzhinne, son of Juh, surrendered on october 1886 at Miles Istee (13) son of Victorio, surrendered on october 1886 at Miles
Nednis' Group: (12 p., 6 w&tb) Nat-Cul-Baye (60?)/José Maria Elias *E-Jo-Nah (51)-Alchintoyeh (10) , ?, surrendered on september 1886 at Miles *1 wife (name,age?)-? La-Zi-Yah (45) , surrendered on september 1886 at Miles *1 wife (name?,35?)-?, surrendered on september 1886 at Miles Nah-Bay (40?) , brother of La-Zi-Yah, surrendered on september 1886 at Miles * 1 wife (name,40?)-1 girl (name?,1), surrendered on september 1886 at Miles Nezegochin (?),surrendered on march 1886 at Crook *?-? Kilthdigai (35) , surrendered on september 1886 at Miles *?-? Azariquelch (19)/Zachia, nephew of Juh?, single killed on november 1885 by White Mountain Apache
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Post by naiches2 on Mar 5, 2011 7:17:48 GMT -5
Add: 1. Name of Yanozha's wife is Tsikahda or Rachel (in captivity); born 1867 (or 1873), died 1821 (or 1922).
2.Courenrouge wrote: "Dilth-Cleyhen (37), daughter of Victorio- Besha-De/Chestuen (12) stepdaughter of Mangas - Cora (12)- Franck (9), surrendered on october 1886 at Miles", but Besha-De (1870-1941) and Chestuen (Elise Vance Chestuan, 1873-1898, daugter of Dilth-Cleyhen and her 1st husband) is different momen.
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Post by kayitah on Mar 6, 2011 15:13:27 GMT -5
I guess most of you already knew about the identification of Beshe on the image below. The identity of the two Chiricahuas sitting on the porch has long been unsolved. Seems to me the man with the hat is Zhonne (see train image for comparison). I have long thought the other man might be Ahnandia, but I think different now - I think this is our missing man on the train photograph - Motsos or Kilth-de-gai. I think it's the latter. No one on the train image wears a similar shirt or headband. And as it seems that neither Naiché, Geronimo, or any of the other changed clothing before being transferred to the railway station at Holbrook, I have to conclude that this is the missing individual.` What do you think? Attachments:
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Post by kayitah on Mar 6, 2011 15:16:24 GMT -5
here's a better image Attachments:
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Post by jeroen on Mar 7, 2011 17:46:05 GMT -5
I have come to the same conclusion about this man (see also earlier discussions about this photograph), he is probably either Motsos or Kilthdigai, but I don't think the second man is Zhonne... the eyes seem different.... Nahbay perhaps?
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