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Post by jeroen on Jun 21, 2011 1:21:46 GMT -5
Well done Bobby! I agree 100%... I also think no. 2 is Seeltoe and Jose Second is probably no.13. I am not sure about the man with the cap though, the mouth is the same... As for the Ferry image, it is hard to tell, but in my opinion it is likely the same group with Nana, Pel coy, Tsisnah (and probably Cathlay) and this may well be the one identified as Shoie:  |
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Post by kayitah on Jun 21, 2011 13:38:34 GMT -5
I have applied the numbers from the men's image to the group image and by doing that I think I found the man (No. 15) who was missing. He's not easy to spot because he doesn't war a headband. Those with the blue numbers are the ones that do not appear in the second photograph where there are only men and the boy Pel-coy posing. Too bad the Fort Marion pictures are in such awful quality   |
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Post by jeroen on Jun 21, 2011 14:25:03 GMT -5
I think you are right!
Assuming that no. 2 is indeed Seeltoe, that would make Tsisnah no. 14, and no. 15 Nezulkide, a brother of Kayatennae and Becalthey...
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Post by bobby on Jun 21, 2011 15:03:57 GMT -5
I have applied the numbers from the men's image to the group image and by doing that I think I found the man (No. 15) who was missing. He's not easy to spot because he doesn't war a headband. Those with the blue numbers are the ones that do not appear in the second photograph where there are only men and the boy Pel-coy posing. Too bad the Fort Marion pictures are in such awful quality My identification of Tsisnah was based on "ferry photo". Considering the poor quality of the group photos it was very difficult to identified nr 14, because can not see his face at all, and it's even hard to tell whether nr 15 is male or female. That's why I assumed that Tsisnah was not present on the photo and nr 14 was Nezulkide. I agree, Kayitah, it's very difficult to work with the photos of such a poor quality. Kayitah, do you have a better quality photo by any chance ? |
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Post by bobby on Jun 21, 2011 15:07:56 GMT -5
I have applied the numbers from the men's image to the group image and by doing that I think I found the man (No. 15) who was missing. He's not easy to spot because he doesn't war a headband. Those with the blue numbers are the ones that do not appear in the second photograph where there are only men and the boy Pel-coy posing. Too bad the Fort Marion pictures are in such awful quality I thought that Pel-coy is on the left, and Petr is on the right. Am I wrong ? Attachments:
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Post by kayitah on Jun 21, 2011 15:28:52 GMT -5
I have applied the numbers from the men's image to the group image and by doing that I think I found the man (No. 15) who was missing. He's not easy to spot because he doesn't war a headband. Those with the blue numbers are the ones that do not appear in the second photograph where there are only men and the boy Pel-coy posing. Too bad the Fort Marion pictures are in such awful quality I thought that Pel-coy is on the left, and Petr is on the right. Am I wrong ? You're right, I got them mixed up, sorry  Unfortunately I don't have better images from the Fort Marion photographs, or I would have posted them for you guys.  |
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Post by bobby on Jun 21, 2011 15:53:44 GMT -5
Here are a few things that makes me thing the this is the same man: - face shape; - mouth shape; - his nose in not identical, but maybe it's because the quality of the photos; - his eyes (the way how the shadows "work" around his eyes creating the same shape); - the way he wears his bandana (you can see that the man with the cap has a bandana under his cap). Attachments:
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Post by kayitah on Jun 21, 2011 16:36:54 GMT -5
I think you are right! Assuming that no. 2 is indeed Seeltoe, that would make Tsisnah no. 14, and no. 15 Nezulkide, a brother of Kayatennae and Becalthey... Or no. 2 is indeed Tsisnah, since the ferry photo is very convincing, which would leave us without an identification for Seeltoe... I have tried to find matches for the men on the ferry. Only Nana and Tsisnah (Seeltoe?) are definetely identifiable, the others are just assumptions. Attachments:
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Post by bobby on Jun 21, 2011 18:11:17 GMT -5
Ok, here's my attempt Attachments:
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xframe
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by xframe on Jun 22, 2011 0:51:18 GMT -5
Ok, here's my attempt Wow, yeah I think you are right with the smiling Ulzana   Also agree on the identification reg the man with the cap. And finally I think no 2 is Tsisnah- |
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Post by jeroen on Jun 22, 2011 4:36:19 GMT -5
Here's my attempt:  I still think no.2 is Seel toe, and in my opinion, he is the man on the other side of Nana in the Ferry image... I agree with you on the Tsisnah identification... |
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Post by coeurrouge on Jun 22, 2011 11:55:32 GMT -5
I have applied the numbers from the men's image to the group image and by doing that I think I found the man (No. 15) who was missing. He's not easy to spot because he doesn't war a headband. Those with the blue numbers are the ones that do not appear in the second photograph where there are only men and the boy Pel-coy posing. Too bad the Fort Marion pictures are in such awful quality Kayitah, could you enlarge the face of all the members of the group on this photo (warriors with wome and children) as you did for the 15th warrior? It will help a lot. |
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Post by coeurrouge on Jun 22, 2011 12:05:37 GMT -5
Comparing Sweeney's list of Chihuahua group with the picture below, it seems that two men are missing on the photo. The signatures on the photo match Sweeney's list for the most part (as far as you can decipher them). My conclusions: Number two (2) on the pic may be actually Seeltoe, or Tsisnah who was identified on other photos of this time. If two people are missing, and number two (2) is Seeltoe, it means there's no Tsisnah and Nezulkide on the photo. I realize that someone identified Seeltoe as José Second before, but considering José Second's Apache name Itsah-dee-tsa (according to Perico on the forum: A 144 challenge « Reply #7 on Feb 3, 2011, 12:54pm »), the only person signed on the photo with a name similar to that is number 13. So my suggestion is that number 13 is José Second. Great work from all you guys ! I am agree but not at 100% . My opinion 1: Cathla 2: Tsinah, I changed after Bobby's arguments 3: Nezegochin 4: Kla-Esch 5: Eskinye 6: Dah-Ke-Ya 7: Nezulkide or Itsah-dee-tsa (Too old to be Lancey, I think) 8: Kas-Tziden 9: Nahdozin 10: Shoie 11: Ulzanna 12 : Ni-Losh 13: Lancey (too young to be José Second and he had a large face as Gilles Lancey in Carlisle) 14: Dodostonay or Petr (with Pel-Coy the onbly teenage boy to surrender with Chihuahua) It miss the 15th identied by Kayitah (Nezulkide or José Second) and Seeltoe maybe the one with the hat with feathers. |
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Post by coeurrouge on Jun 22, 2011 12:15:09 GMT -5
Hard to say because of the low quality of Fort Marion's photo, but I think those two men are the same one (the 15th one). My idea is he was José Second a man around 30 years old. So it could be also Nezulkide. Attachments:
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Post by bobby on Jun 22, 2011 18:53:48 GMT -5
I think that number 7 is probably Lancey (Len-see). Attachments:
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