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Post by coeurrouge on May 20, 2011 12:30:57 GMT -5
I think about Chinche first but she seems very happy to see a beloved one. And the women in Fort Bowie certainly knew at the time of the photo that Chinche was killed a month ago.So I concluded that Neschila and Chinche could not be husband and wife.
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Post by coeurrouge on May 20, 2011 14:55:20 GMT -5
I think Tay-Az-Slath and Counteza could be sisters. What do you think? On Chiricahua apache Women thread, it is said that they could be related. And looking their face, I find there is a family looks between them. Attachments:
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Post by jeroen on May 21, 2011 11:03:40 GMT -5
I think they were relatives; I have Counteza being related to Naiche, and I think that, although I can't prove it, Tay az slath was related to Shega and Yanozha (sister perhaps) who were also relatives of Naiche...
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Post by coeurrouge on May 29, 2011 6:26:59 GMT -5
Loo-Is-Ah, wife of Tsinah at Carlisle, was she his wife on 1885, at the outbreak? If so, those women, on my idea (not convince on 100%), could be the same, look the nose. Attachments:
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Post by jeroen on Jun 6, 2011 11:36:53 GMT -5
Sorry coeurrouge I don't see the resemblance... the mouth seems different...
As for Chinche's wife, I have her name as Cah gah ahshy. In early June 1885, she became seperated from the band led by Naiche and Chihuahua while looking for her baby son.
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Post by coeurrouge on Jun 15, 2011 12:32:37 GMT -5
After doing a count, I found that I count 11 people that surrendered with Mangas. But only 10 people surrendered with on october 1886 (Debo, Sweeney). And Huera, (wife of Mangas), was captured on auguts 1885 with Geronimo's family. it seems that the chihenne outbreakers under Nana and Mangas were with Geronimo at this time. I am wondering if Besha-De and her grandmother Bey-Gin-Shoos could be captured on august 1885. And then the 3 womens surrendered with Mangas were Dilth-Cleyhen, Ish-Key and another wife, perhaps the wife of Eskinilteze. My idea, but not not sure is that those Chiricahua women (on the photo)in "prison" at Fort Bowie on 1886 were Bey-Gin-Shoos and Besha-De with her baby. It means that Besha-De was already married. Very possible looking of her age. Attachments:
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Post by kayitah on Jun 15, 2011 16:25:38 GMT -5
After doing a count, I found that I count 11 people that surrendered with Mangas. But only 10 people surrendered with on october 1886 (Debo, Sweeney). And Huera, (wife of Mangas), was captured on auguts 1885 with Geronimo's family. it seems that the chihenne outbreakers under Nana and Mangas were with Geronimo at this time. I am wondering if Besha-De and her grandmother Bey-Gin-Shoos could be captured on august 1885. And then the 3 womens surrendered with Mangas were Dilth-Cleyhen, Ish-Key and another wife, perhaps the wife of Eskinilteze. My idea, but not not sure is that those Chiricahua women (on the photo)in "prison" at Fort Bowie on 1886 were Bey-Gin-Shoos and Besha-De with her baby. It means that Besha-De was already married. Very possible looking of her age. Hmm that's a very interesting thought, but the two women carry a strong resemblance to each other (nose, mouth, even the eyes), so I'd assume they are mother and daughter. And since the baby is carried by the older woman, it possibly means that it's her own child and therefore a sister to the older girl. Just my impression. |
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Post by jeroen on Jun 17, 2011 8:42:22 GMT -5
You could be right, but was this photograph really taken at Fort Bowie? The background and the lighting of the image is very different from the other portraits taken of the women at Bowie... in fact, the background suggests this is one of the series of pictures taken by Randall/Wittick... I agree with Kayitah they may well be mother and daughter though...
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Post by bobby on Jun 19, 2011 0:40:18 GMT -5
Thomas Pel-coy (on the left side) ? Attachments:
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Post by coeurrouge on Jun 19, 2011 6:54:06 GMT -5
I think too.
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Post by bobby on Jun 20, 2011 16:10:56 GMT -5
Comparing Sweeney's list of Chihuahua group with the picture below, it seems that two men are missing on the photo. The signatures on the photo match Sweeney's list for the most part (as far as you can decipher them). My conclusions: Number two (2) on the pic may be actually Seeltoe, or Tsisnah who was identified on other photos of this time. If two people are missing, and number two (2) is Seeltoe, it means there's no Tsisnah and Nezulkide on the photo. I realize that someone identified Seeltoe as José Second before, but considering José Second's Apache name Itsah-dee-tsa (according to Perico on the forum: A 144 challenge « Reply #7 on Feb 3, 2011, 12:54pm »), the only person signed on the photo with a name similar to that is number 13. So my suggestion is that number 13 is José Second.  |
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Post by kayitah on Jun 20, 2011 16:44:19 GMT -5
Excellent, Bobby, I completely agree. But why are there the images of TWO men above no. 12 (Ni-losh)?
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Post by kayitah on Jun 20, 2011 17:05:38 GMT -5
You also make a strong case for Seeltoe (Siil-to). After being convinced the man sitting next to Cathlay is Tsisnah, I now have my doubts. Here is the above photograph in comparison with the one that shows the Chiricahuas waiting for the ferry (or on the ferry). To me it seems that none, with the exception of Nana (and arguably the man identified as Tsisnah), none of the others is on the above photograph. These photos may show two seperate groups, with Nana as a leader and highly respected elder pictured with both of them... Just an idea   |
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Post by bobby on Jun 20, 2011 18:38:42 GMT -5
Excellent, Bobby, I completely agree. But why are there the images of TWO men above no. 12 (Ni-losh)? That's one and the same man above Ni-losh, it's just that on one of the photos you couldn't see his whole silhouette, so I cropped him from two versions of the same photo, and put it together |
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Post by bobby on Jun 20, 2011 23:36:12 GMT -5
Here's my suggestion: the last photographs of the man in the cap were the CS Fly's photos. He looks a bit different on every photo. He's not present on the photos from Fort Bowie, "train photo", and Sam Huston photos. It's known that he didn't leave with Atelnietze and Nat-cul-bay-e, so I assume that he was in Chihuahua's group. the man in the cap on one of the Fly's photos is similar to Nezegochin. So what do you think ? It's just an idea. Attachments:
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