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Post by Second on Feb 10, 2011 19:37:39 GMT -5
On the pictures of Chihuahua's group, where everyone is sitting down. Jose Second is #2. In the picture where everyon is standing. Jose Second stands on Nana's right. On Nana's left is Chief Chihuahua.
Jose Second, participated in the outbreak of 85 under Naiche, He surrendered with his family with Chief Chihuhua.
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Post by coeurrouge on Feb 11, 2011 12:37:31 GMT -5
Who was his family?
Name, age of the woman(men) and child(ren), if you had, I will thank you
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Post by kayitah on Feb 11, 2011 13:49:19 GMT -5
On the pictures of Chihuahua's group, where everyone is sitting down. Jose Second is #2. In the picture where everyon is standing. Jose Second stands on Nana's right. On Nana's left is Chief Chihuahua. Jose Second, participated in the outbreak of 85 under Naiche, He surrendered with his family with Chief Chihuhua. I must admit I don't know anything about José Second. So José Second and Seeltoe are one and the same person? |
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Post by naiches2 on Feb 11, 2011 14:33:40 GMT -5
On the pictures of Chihuahua's group, where everyone is sitting down. Jose Second is #2. In the picture where everyon is standing. Jose Second stands on Nana's right. On Nana's left is Chief Chihuahua. Jose Second, participated in the outbreak of 85 under Naiche, He surrendered with his family with Chief Chihuhua. This is very  On picture of Chihuahua's band (men are sitting, no women) man under #2 markered as 'Seeltoe', But Seeltoe is man, what kill himself in Alabama: CORUNNA JOURNAL,APRIL 26 1894 MOBILE, Ala., April 19.—At Mount Vernon birracks, near this city, Hugh Seeltoe, an Apache soldier, in a fit of jealousy fatally wounded another Indian soldier named Nahtoahghun and a female Apache prisoner and the killed himself.Jose Second live in Mescalero Res. after 1913, his widow May Peso Second was friend of Eve Ball (see Indeh) |
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Post by jeroen on Feb 11, 2011 16:12:35 GMT -5
I don't get it either... Seeltoe and Jose Second must have been different men...
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Post by jeroen on Feb 11, 2011 16:14:42 GMT -5
sorry coeurrouge, don't have close ups of the other parts of the photo..
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Post by wanbliceya on Feb 11, 2011 18:24:12 GMT -5
Could somebody let me know where this list of names came from and the references Ed Sweeney used to come up with this list? I am interested as I think that another name may be missing. Any information would be greatly appreciated.
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Post by wanbliceya on Feb 11, 2011 19:06:10 GMT -5
I don't get it either... Seeltoe and Jose Second must have been different men... To end the debate, Seeltoe and Jose Second are definitely not the same person. |
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Post by Second on Feb 11, 2011 22:41:58 GMT -5
Seeltoe and Jose Second are different men. Jose Second indian name was Itsa dit sa. He was married to a Warm Springs Apache name perhaps Juana. They had a daughter named Kukah. Both were taken to Cuba as servants. Jose and Chiricahu Jim were allowed to go to Mescalero in 94 to capture horses for the soldiers. Horses were captured and sent but both men remained in Mescalero. Jose served as a medicine man while in Mescalero. He remarried to a Mescalero woman, name unknown. Had three sons. His son Manuel married May Peso.
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Post by jeroen on Feb 12, 2011 13:51:47 GMT -5
Thanks Second, for the additional info on your great grandfather... so the id on the photo of number two as Seeltoe is wrong for we have established here it is in fact Jose Second/Itsa dit sa and they are not the same person. Queston is, does the image show seeltoe at all, for he was definitely in Chihuahua's group.
Wanbliceya, welcome to these boards... you say that another name may be missing... who do you have in mind?
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Post by naiches2 on Feb 12, 2011 16:52:29 GMT -5
Ok. Seeltoe and Jose Second is a different man. I'm sorry for my stupid question: who is man under #2. I think is Seeltoe (as marked), secod think is Jose. Where is the truth. Where the arguments, second  |
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Post by Second on Feb 12, 2011 19:14:40 GMT -5
Hello guys, I am here to learn as well. So forgive me if I have created confusion. The number two man is Jose Second. As you can see he is wearing a medicine cord. Jose and Nana were the medicine man in that group. I am not sure that Seeltoe was a medicine man. I think you guys are doing a great job. I am here mostly to answer questions on the culture. All these pictures are new to me, except for the pictures of Geronimo and Mr Bruce in Florida, they are copied under my name and book. I am fasinated by the pictures here. My book is composed of descendents from all these warriors and chiefs. I have written about them but this is the first time I get to see what they look like. The arguments among you guys are great, as they make you think and pay attention to details. I have a great deal of knowledge about White Tail. In a way I have become the keeper of White Tail's history. Any debates that need to be cleared, I may be able to help. I also know a lot about the Kanseah's and Chatto, Victorio and Toclanny, David Kazhe, Connie. Their descendents are among the singers in our group.
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Post by naiches2 on Feb 12, 2011 19:32:49 GMT -5
Hello guys, I am here to learn as well. So forgive me if I have created confusion. The number two man is Jose Second. As you can see he is wearing a medicine cord. Jose and Nana were the medicine man in that group. I am not sure that Seeltoe was a medicine man. I think you guys are doing a great job. I am here mostly to answer questions on the culture. All these pictures are new to me, except for the pictures of Geronimo and Mr Bruce in Florida, they are copied under my name and book. I am fasinated by the pictures here. My book is composed of descendents from all these warriors and chiefs. I have written about them but this is the first time I get to see what they look like. The arguments among you guys are great, as they make you think and pay attention to details. I have a great deal of knowledge about White Tail. In a way I have become the keeper of White Tail's history. Any debates that need to be cleared, I may be able to help. I also know a lot about the Kanseah's and Chatto, Victorio and Toclanny, David Kazhe, Connie. Their descendents are among the singers in our group. Wow! 1.You say real arguments. I agree with you. But who is Seeltoe? and we are forced to question the identification of man at photo. 2. We neeeeed information about your ancestors. 3. If you will, publish the photo 'Geronimo and Mr Bruce in Florida' on our site (in real this man is Colle, not Geronimo) 4. Greetings from Russia to your singers friends! |
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Post by Second on Feb 12, 2011 23:28:02 GMT -5
Hello Natchez I didnt say real arguments, I said, The arguments among you guys are great, as they make you think and pay attention to details. I meant it in a positive way. I also brougt up the point of the medicine cord. Was Seeltoe a medicine man, if he was not that proves is not hime as the number 2, Apache has one. It looks to me like my grandpa Second. but if someone can prove me wrong, i will accept it. and will make the adjustment to my book.
The pic of Geronimo and Mr Bruce is already posted here. Mr Bruce's great grandson states that his grandmother told him that mr Bruce met Geronimo at Fort Marion. Mr Bruce was the Fort Keeper. I have never payed much attention to official records as most were altered. I say this because according to records Geronimo was at Fort Pickens. Common sense allows for Geronimo to visit his family at Fort Marion and the birth of his daughter Marion, born at the Fort. It is very posible to be him. I have friens who have studied Geronimo and they feel its him based on facial features. Mr Bruce's great grandson tells me its him. Common sense allows it to be him. Frankly, he looks too young to me to be Geronimo.
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Post by naiches2 on Feb 13, 2011 0:33:04 GMT -5
Hello Natchez I didnt say real arguments, I said, The arguments among you guys are great, as they make you think and pay attention to details. I meant it in a positive way. I also brougt up the point of the medicine cord. Was Seeltoe a medicine man, if he was not that proves is not hime as the number 2, Apache has one. It looks to me like my grandpa Second. but if someone can prove me wrong, i will accept it. and will make the adjustment to my book. The pic of Geronimo and Mr Bruce is already posted here. Mr Bruce's great grandson states that his grandmother told him that mr Bruce met Geronimo at Fort Marion. Mr Bruce was the Fort Keeper. I have never payed much attention to official records as most were altered. I say this because according to records Geronimo was at Fort Pickens. Common sense allows for Geronimo to visit his family at Fort Marion and the birth of his daughter Marion, born at the Fort. It is very posible to be him. I have friens who have studied Geronimo and they feel its him based on facial features. Mr Bruce's great grandson tells me its him. Common sense allows it to be him. Frankly, he looks too young to me to be Geronimo. Yes, this picture (Geronimo and Mr Bruce) posted, but too low quality. Right now I think this is Colle (look at his shirt). If you have this picture in better quality would post it for comparison.  And we will look at good picture of your great-grandfather. Please. |
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On picture of Chihuahua's band (men are sitting, no women) man under #2 markered as 'Seeltoe', 