Chiricahuas in Florida

[Second]

Hello Natchez, I dont have a better quality picture. What you have is what I have. Although the shirts look very similar, I would have to say that the one Colle wears has an extra black lining between the white stripes. I have seen this pattern of shirts before and always thought they were issued as a typical prisoner's shirt. As you can see a lot of the other prisoners have similar stripped shirts. I also do not see the rings on Colle's fingers like I see in Geronimo. It is hard to say, the quailty is pretty poor. I do feel that the facial features and age range match more with Colle than Geronimo. I think the rings are the Key, as you usually keep them. Shirts come and go.
These are the things I know. The Chiricahuas brought their medicine box with them to Florida. Ramon (last name Raley?) was in charge of the Crown Dancers. The drum carried by Colle suggest he is at the very least involve in the Medicine circle. I have always wondered if that was Ramon. I do not think that Colle, whom I referred to as Curley was part of that circle.
I have asked my friend Jack to join this forum as he has done many paintings of Geronimo and feels that it is him.
Mr Bruces family has passed down how Mr Bruce met and took pictures with Geronimo. The biggest key to identiying wether is Geronimo or Curley is from a picture that shows Geroniimo, Mr. and Mrs. Bruce along with is an Apache woman and chidlren photographed on that day at the same spot. Do you guys have that picture? If the Apache woman and or children can be identified as Geronimos wife/family or Colle's wife/family it will solve this dilemma.
Do you know if Colle/Curley, had wife, children with them at the fort. Just that alone will help immensely.

[Second]

The singers in our group are all descendents from that old group. As far as I know, there are no descendents of Colle, Curley in our group. Ramon's descendents are still very involved out of San Carlos/Fort Apache, AZ.

[Second]

Can anyone tell me how to download a picture here
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[coeurrouge]

use the item "attachment" and chosse your photo youwant to share.

Geronimo and his warriors never quit fort Pickens unless to go to Alabama. It was their family who came at Fort Pickens on april 1887. It was at this time that Geronimo met for the first time his daughter (done with Iltheda) Lenna, borned a year ago.

[coeurrouge]

Second,

This man is often presented as Laziyah, but I have strong doubts about that. Because, on photo of warriors who surrendered with Geronimo, he never seemed to appear.
On photo of warriors of Chihuahua, the only warrior (it is my thought) who look like this man, seems to be your ancestor José Second.

Do you think I am right?

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[naiches2]

Feb 13, 2011 10:47:14 GMT -5 Second said:

The biggest key to identiying wether is Geronimo or Curley is from a picture that shows Geroniimo, Mr. and Mrs. Bruce along with is an Apache woman and chidlren photographed on that day at the same spot. Do you guys have that picture? If the Apache woman and or children can be identified as Geronimos wife/family or Colle's wife/family it will solve this dilemma.
Do you know if Colle/Curley, had wife, children with them at the fort. Just that alone will help immensely.

I'm sorry, but:
1. Photo marked: Geronimo and FW Bruce at Fort Marion, St. Augustine, Fla. 1886

2. Look at statement coeurrouge:

Feb 13, 2011 11:32:14 GMT -5 coeurrouge said:

Geronimo and his warriors never quit fort Pickens unless to go to Alabama. It was their family who came at Fort Pickens on april 1887. It was at this time that Geronimo met for the first time his daughter (done with Iltheda) Lenna, borned a year ago.

I'll agree.

3. Cit. from historicaltextarchive.com/sections.php?action=read&artid=787#_ftn7, where here photo:
The U.S. Corps of Engineers[6] hired him in 1885; he retired in 1913. His first job with the Corps was as Fort Keeper of Fort Marion (now Castillo de San Marcos), restoring and repairing it, particularly the Roman arch. The Spanish began the fort in 1672, completing it in 1695, to protect the Spanish treasure fleets. It was renamed by the British and then the United States when each took control of St. Augustine.

About Colle look at Colle's thread; Replies #29,#30,#31 in Naiche's thread; and Reply #15 on May 7, 2010 inTaza's thread.

[naiches2]

Feb 13, 2011 11:41:00 GMT -5 coeurrouge said:

Second,

This man is often presented as Laziyah, but I have strong doubts about that. Because, on photo of warriors who surrendered with Geronimo, he never seemed to appear.
On photo of warriors of Chihuahua, the only warrior (it is my thought) who look like this man, seems to be your ancestor José Second.

Do you think I am right?

Very interesting version

[Second]

Thanks couraouge, for the Geronimo family info. I do not know who the warrior that you posted is. He does have a medicine cap and it would his features are very similar to the warrior with drum in Chihuahuas group. He is not Jose Second. My book should be out soon, I have written the stories as they were told to me. I have included the pictures in question of Geronimo and wrote the storie as Bruce's great grandson told it to me. It is up to scholars and groups like this one to evaluated further. As I mentioned I am more up to speed on current history from 1913 on. So feel free to ask questions from that period on. Anything before that, I refer to you guys. Again, I think this is a great site. It has difinitively captured my attention. Today i got to see her a picture of Geronimo's group in the train with all the officers in it. I was under the that just a few officers were assigned to tha detail.

[coeurrouge]

if he is not José Second. A warrior at Los Embudos who seemed to not be with Chihuahua or Geronimo during their surrender, Who could he be?

I am nearly sure he was not Laziyah, so i think more and more he was Tah-Ni-Toe. The only warrior of the 144 outbreakers who went to Florida with the Chiricahuas staid at San Carlos.

your opinions

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[jeroen]

I am certain the man with mr Bruce is, despite the Bruce family tradition, not Geronimo who never was allowed to visit Fort Marion. Also, he does not look like the old warrior. I agree with Naiches it is Cathlay (Colle, Cullah, Curley etc)
For some time I thought that the man usually identified as Laziyah, was actually Chihuahua himself, but the discussions in the Naiche thread convinced me he could well be Laziyah (who, in my opinion is also shown in the famous train photo). I got the impression from Sweeney's book that Tah ni toe was still a young fellow with no particular standing, and the image clearly shows a more prominent middle aged man... We can't be certain of course, but I doubt it is Tah ni toe and up to this point will stick with Laziyah... Coeurrouge, what is your argument for stating that you are nearly sure it is not Laziyah?

[Second]

Hey guys! I want to pick your brains here. I was looking at the Naiche Site and saw the picture of the soldiers in Co. “I“ , 12th Inf. Do you know if any other pictures exist that will show Jose Second. He and Jose Fist were members of the Co. I am also surprised not to find Jose First among Chihuahuas group. Both Joses' were inseparable. They were both captured by Mexicans at an early age, both escaped together. Both joined Co. I, 12th Inf. It has been said that the first thing Fist did when he arrived in Mescalero was to visit his old pal Second. I find it strange that he was not with Chihuahuas group.
next is Lozen, has anyone determined who she may be. In the picture of the Apache playing card in Alabama someone mentioned her as being in the center to the left. The person I thought, you guys were referinng to is here as old lady connie. The photo of old lady connie that appears here with the black dress and jewelery appears to be a big frame woman. Old lady connie has been described as small bone and short.
I have written about her in lenght in my book while she lived in White Tail.
I am glad I can talk abou Lozen here and try to learn more about her. In the Reservation noone likes to talk about her. Most Apaches including myself believed she was the lady in the train picture with her face half covered by her hair, the one sitting next to Naiche's wife.

[Second]

In addition to above, in Chihuahuas group of men sitting number 7 who we keep picking on, looks a lot like Jose First. Jose frist always wore a black vest and had bushy hair, very similar to number 7.

[kayitah]

Do you have photographs of them, maybe as they were older?

[naiches2]

Chiricahuas Preparing to Board Trains at Holbrook, Arizona Territory
(unknown artist)

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[coeurrouge]

Feb 15, 2011 2:18:56 GMT -5 jeroen said:

I am certain the man with mr Bruce is, despite the Bruce family tradition, not Geronimo who never was allowed to visit Fort Marion. Also, he does not look like the old warrior. I agree with Naiches it is Cathlay (Colle, Cullah, Curley etc)
For some time I thought that the man usually identified as Laziyah, was actually Chihuahua himself, but the discussions in the Naiche thread convinced me he could well be Laziyah (who, in my opinion is also shown in the famous train photo). I got the impression from Sweeney's book that Tah ni toe was still a young fellow with no particular standing, and the image clearly shows a more prominent middle aged man... We can't be certain of course, but I doubt it is Tah ni toe and up to this point will stick with Laziyah... Coeurrouge, what is your argument for stating that you are nearly sure it is not Laziyah?

You maybe right about Laziyah, but I do not find a photo of Laziyah to compare with the man with the medecine hat. By comparaison, I do not find a man of Geronimo'warrior or of Chihuahua who likes this man. And the only warriors who were at Embudos and not surrender were Atelnietze, Natculbaye and Tahnitoe, so... Tahnitoe was a close friend of Naiche, so he could the same age of the chief, I do not know you maybe right Jeroen that he is, in fact, Laziyah.