Crazy Horse and relatives

[hreinn]

Kingsley:

OK.
Thanks.
I look forward to your post about the genealogy information from LAKOTA TIMES 1986.
Yes this is a complicated and delicate matter.
People are simply and faithfully saying what they have learned from their relatives.
With the complicating factor that in Lakota culture a "daughter" was a daughter etc..


On their DVD disc from 2006, the Clown family did not mention family background of the couple Black Bull and White Cow Woman [1].
But in 2010, Wendell Smoke wrote on this website, where we saw the family background of White Cow Woman [2].
And what is important, Wendell Smoke confirmed what the Clown family said on their DVD disc.
For example, father of Lone Horn II was Black Bull [2].
So we have 2 independent sources who say something else than Elaine Quiver, with all respect for her (meant in a polite manner).
That is regarding who was Lone Horn's II father (Black Bull vs. Red Fish).
Wendell Smoke's information not only confirmed what the Clown family said.
But also explained to us relations between many people, for example between Crazy Horse and Red Cloud.
So together it seems to give a clear and coherent picture of the extended family tree.


The family background of Black Bull is missing on the DVD from the Clown family.
Perhaps because they did not know it.
But that alone should not nullify what they say about Black Bull's wives and children.
It seems that Elaine Quiver is informing of a relative of Black Bull who the Clown family was not aware of, i.e. Red Fish.
Where Red Fish could have been a brother, a "brother" or a hunka brother of Black Bull.
I agree that you can't ignore Red Fish and a connection between Red Fish and Black Bull.
By puzzling some pieces, I have suggested that one of Black Bull's relatives could have been either Runs After Enemy or White Water Woman [3, 4].


To try to take into an account what both Clown family and Elaine Quiver have said.
Perhaps fatherless children of Black Bull and White Cow Woman were adopted by a hunka ceremony.
The sons Lone Horn and One Horn "adopted by"/hunka to Red Fish.
The daughters Good Looking Woman, Rattling Blanket Woman and Looks At It "adopted by"/hunka to Runs After Enemy and White Water Woman.
So when Rattling Blanket's sisters offered to help raising up Crazy Horse after his mother's death.
These sisters could have been repeating what had been possible done when they were in the same position in their youth.


In the Clown family "testimony", I find it important that Black Bull's youngest daughter = Crazy Horse's niece = Crazy Horse's foster-mother = the namesake of Crazy Horse's daughter = They Are Afraid of Her (aka. Looks At It), was taken care of by the Clown Family (Julia Clown and her husband) when she was old until she died in 1889 [1].
For me that is the key or guarantee that the immediate Mnikhówozu part of the family tree is most likely correct + Wendell Smoke's confirmation.


I hope the Clown family will include in their book the family background of Black Bull and White Cow Woman.


Hreinn


P.S.
I hope we can rule out the possibility that we are talking about the same individual with 2 names !
a) White Water Woman is not the same person as White Cow Woman.
b) Black Bull is not the same person as Runs After Enemy.


References:
1. DVD disc: The Authorized Biography of Crazy Horse and His Family, Part One - Creation, Spirituality and The Family Tree, made by Reel Contact in association with Tashunke Witko Tiospaye (2006).http://www.reelcontact.com
2. Reply #49 on page 4 in the thread Chief Smoke and his family
amertribes.proboards.com/index.cg....read=239&page=4
3. Reply #83 above
4. Reply #88 above

[grahamew]

I'd love you two to put your heads together and come up with a Crazy Horse family tree - even if it will be disputed and have to be a best probable fit in certain areas,

[debstar76]

hreinn...
Yes, Ulala/Eulalia Conroy aka Ownes Spotted Horse Woman, is the woman on the Census with Mary "Mrs Sandy Williams" and her Brother Frank..
Ulala was born Jan 1834, (I also think that Grandma Ulala's birth year was around 1830 or 1827, other than what was stated in Census's)the old Indian Census rolls, never kept the ages right on those census's from year to year..sometimes they were just copied from the year before also..
Frank Conroy was married to Victoria Standing Bear..they had 4 or 5 children..Oldest son Harry was Tribal President in 1950..
In the Crazy Horse Surrender ledger, Ulala is listed as "Mrs Conroy" not at Spotted Horse Woman, who was someone else..many people had the same names. Ulala always went by Conroy, so I don't think she ever remarried, even her headstone reads..Ulala Conroy..she died Mar 10, 1907.

[nicolas (carlo)]

Kingsley, Hreinn,

Also see here, previous discussion on family connection between Red Fish/Whistling Elk/Lone Horn II:
amertribes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=miniconjou1&action=display&thread=1270

See my posts #1 and #6.

Carlo

[Dietmar]

I admit I´m not as familiar with the CH genealogy than the rest of the gang here, but I have the Lakota Times article of 1886, so let me know if I should look something up for you.

Actually, I got the article with the chart with "A tentative geneology of Crazy Horse" from a Lakota friend some years ago, but she advised me not to take it too seriously. It was written by a non-indian writer and the chart seems to be her work and may include some errors.

However, interestingly the article is titled "We may never know the truth".

[hreinn]

Dietmar:

You did not know what you got yourself into !
If I may, below is a long list of questions.
I understand if you find it too much.


The couple Runs After Enemy and White Water Woman:
1. year of birth and death ?
2. family background ? (i.e. parents, siblings)
3. Is there any mention of Big Woman ? (i.e. as a daughter or a relative of Runs After Enemy and/or White Water Woman)
4. band or tribe (i.e. Mnikhówozu) ?


Children of Runs After Enemy and White Water Woman
1. names ?
2. year of birth and death ?
3. their husbands / wives (names, year of death or what every detail which is listed)
4. their descendants (name, year of death and birth or what every detail is listed)
5. any other detail ?


Is there any mention of Owl Bull (or Bull Owl), Black Coyote, Dog Skin Necklace, Looking Thunder or Long Horn


Is there any mention of the Oglala part of Crazy Horse's family tree ?
for example any sibling of Worm (Crazy Horse 2) ? if so who says that ?
Is there any mention of a sister of Crazy Horse ? (Looks At Her ?) if so, who says that ?


Is there a Lakota version of the name of any person ?


Thanks in advance.

Hreinn

[Dietmar]

Hreinn,

the article itself contains not too much new substantial information, it´s more about the confusion and controversial claims between CH relatives in general.

I just repeat what is in the family tree chart:

Runs the Enemy & White Water (Under Water):
children:
- Good Looking Woman
- Looks At Her (married Bulls Lays On Ground, son: Coffee #2)
- Rattle Blanket Woman

Big Crow & Good Looking Woman:
- Henry Big Crow

Henry Big Crow & unknown:
- Bertha Beans
- Kills In Side [actually this was Kills In Site or Soldier]

Bertha Beans & Quick Bear [this was Edward QB]:
- Gabriel Quick Bear (daughter: Elaine Quick Bear Quiver)

There are no dates or other information.

[hreinn]

Thanks Dietmar.

It is disappointing.
I expected more hard facts in this article.


It is very unlikely there were 2 sets of a mother named Looks At Her + a son named Coffee.
One Oglala and another Mnikhówozu.
Both closely related to Crazy Horse



The Mnikhówozu set:

Nov 16, 2012 10:55:56 GMT -5 Dietmar said:

Runs the Enemy & White Water (Under Water):
children:
- Good Looking Woman
- Looks At Her (married Bulls Lays On Ground, son: Coffee #2)
- Rattle Blanket Woman

=> Rattling Blanket Woman's sister



The Oglala set:

Jul 4, 2012 8:34:24 GMT -5 lincoln said:

In 1934 an Indian named Coffee said Crazy Horse snr, ie Worm, had one son, named Crazy Horse, and one daughter, named Looks At Her and that this daughter was his, Coffee's, mother, and that she had no other children.

=> assumingly Rattling Blanket Woman's daughter (1/2 Oglala + 1/2 Mnikhówozu, but mainly growing up in an Oglala camp and therefore an Oglala).
(But as always, perhaps Rattling Blanket Woman's "daughter" and therefore referring to the Looks At Her + Coffee above.)



Yes, you could have a daughter of Rattling Blanket Woman who had the same name as Rattling Blanket's sister.
But both naming their sons Coffee.
That is too much.
There is some misunderstanding here.
Either some of these persons never existed or some of their names are wrong.
Unfortunately, you can argue with and against both sets.


Who is the source in LAKOTA TIMES 1986 for Looks At Her + Coffee ?


Hreinn

[emilylevine]

I don't know if anyone ever posted that article/family tree from Lakota Times. I have a photocopy of it and could scan it and post it if people want. It's four separate sheets.

Nov 13, 2012 6:38:57 GMT -5 kingsleybray said:

hreinn,

I have a copy of the 1986 issue of LAKOTA TIMES, but it is in storage and I can't get to it at the moment.

It put together a family tree from a number of Lakota sources, and it was the first one I came across which named Rattle Blanket Woman's parents as Runs After Enemy and White Water.

One of the sources was Elaine Quiver, Elaine I have spoken to a number of times, though not in the past five years or so. Elaine is a well respected elder at Pine Ridge, she descends from the Red Fish (Cheyenne River) and Quick Bear (Rosebud) families. She was emphatic to me that the father of both Elk Bellows Walking and Lone Horn II was Red Fish, the Miniconjou chief noted in a number of contemporary sources over the period 1835-68. At that time, 2000-2002, the genealogies were just beginning to come out from Cheyenne River insisting that Lone Horn's father was Black Bull (c. 1755-1815). I asked Elaine about this, she continued to state that Red Fish was the father of Lone Horn, but acknowledged that there was a long-standing 'brother' relationship between the Red Fish and Black Bull lines. By contrast Cheyenne River sources like the Clowns simply state they don't know of any Red Fish family, or more starkly, that there was no such person as Red Fish. That is absurd. I have been told by other sources that there is a Red Fish family today (or anyway 1990s) that lives in the Red Scaffold community at Cheyenne River.

This is one example of family histories that I simply cannot reconcile. I should like to clear it up, but it seems to have got problematic to question, since it is part of the highly contentious claim by the Clowns going through the courts right now, and which is contested by Crazy Horse/Little Hawk relatives at Pine Ridge.

As always there are many sides to these accounts. I know this doesn't bear directly on the issues you raise in this thread, hreinn, but wanted to bring out these points. When I can, I will check that LAKOTA TIMES issue and let you know.

best wishes

Kingsley

[nicolas (carlo)]

That would be great Emily, thanks.

[emilylevine]

page 1

Attachments:

[emilylevine]

page 2

Attachments:

[emilylevine]

page 3

Attachments:

[emilylevine]

here's the last page of the 1986 Lakota Times article.

I must confess that I really don't understand the obsession with CH's family tree. I have been contacted by certain parties involved in the court case over the years to see if there is anything at the Sandoz archives here in Lincoln.
I know that there are contentious emotions, anger, and bitterness. And it goes on and on . . .

From what I know of the man, I can't imagine that Tasunko Witco would feel good about this.

Anyway, just my two cents.

Attachments:

[hreinn]

Thank you very much Emily Levine !
It is kind of you to copy and post this.
It will be interesting to read this.

Perhaps there is something related to Crazy Horse in the untranslated letter from Victoria Standing Bear Conroy to Josephine ?

Yes, unification of the Lakota nation seemed to have been important for Crazy Horse.
As demonstrated by an example when he sacrified his love for Black Buffalo Woman to keep the unity of the Lakota nation.

Hreinn