Post by sgoodshield on Oct 26, 2012 13:12:19 GMT -5
Hreinn Eagle Horse was marries to Elk Woman. children of eagle horse and elk woman are black tail,looks white,eagle magpie, unknown eagle horse. he also had 2 children with another woman, seven up, her horse. he was listed as living with his mother in law spotted horse or spotted horse woman. another relative listed as swift hawk lower brule. i am still trying to follow up on the pine ridge side. my grandmother was anna her horse. this is an awesome side. keep up the good parley.
Your last post was interesting. At the moment it is quit possible that "yours" Eagle Horse was indeed indirectly related to Crazy Horse.
What you wrote could fit in the puzzle. And give a new insight into Crazy Horse's genealogy. Which is not yet completely understood. Because there are yet some conflicting things which needs to be sorted out. There is something which is accepted as a fact which is wrong and/or there is/are some unknown link(s) missing. We just have to dive in and find out what is wrong and/or missing and get the whole and correct picture.
Eagle Horse's mother-in-law 1
So according to allotment documents Eagle Horse had 2 wives, i.e. Elk Woman (also confirmed with Pine Ridge Agency Censuses) and a woman with an unknown name. And the mother of one of Eagle Horse's wives was Spotted Horse Woman.
It is possible that this Spotted Horse Woman (Eagle Horse's mother-in-law) was also the oldest child and only daughter of the Oglala chief Smoke (b.1774, d.1864) and his first wife Looking Cloud Woman. That Spotted Horse Woman was also known as Owns Spotted Horse Woman, Eulalia and Ulala. Owns Spotted Horse Woman has been discussed in this thread and also in the thread Chief Smoke and his family.
In reply #53 in the thread Chief Smoke and his family, Wendell Smoke wrote:
Deb, Hello, I know the Conroys direct lineage of their family tree, Ulala Smoke a.k.a. Spotted Horse Woman was the only daughter of the Old Chief Smoke and his first wife; Looking Cloud Woman of Teton Minneconju band. Ulala was first married to old Bull Bear (one of his wives; the youngest wife), but he was abusive and aggressive to her. So her cousin/brother Red Cloud killed old Bull Bear in 1841 (one of the reasons that Red Cloud killed him for), then after awhile Ulala got interested and, later on, married (second married) a Irish military officer and a interpreter; Thomas John Conroy at Fort Laramie Wyoming. They had two children; a boy (American Baby/Boy) John and a girl unknown. John had one son named; Taylor, he had one son named Eli, he having three sons; Arlo, Cornell and Corbin Conroy. They’re alive today, and are the direct great-great-grandsons of Ulala Smoke and Thomas Conroy. Cornell gave me some papers on Ulala and Thomas.
I suspect this unknown daughter of Spotted Horse Woman who Wendell Smoke mentioned is either of Eagle Horse's wives, i.e. either Elk Woman or the woman with an unknown name (mother to Seven Up and Her Horse).
debstar76 who has been writing in this thread is a gg-granddaughter of Owns Spotted Horse Woman and g-granddaughter of John Conroy (mentioned by Wendell Smoke above) and she wrote that Owns Spotted Horse Woman had 5-6 children . LaDeane Miller has in his genealogy the names of 4 children of Owns Spotted Horse Woman . According to LaDeane, the oldest child of Owns Spotted Horse Woman was Sandy Conroy (b.1858) . Sandy Conroy is most likely the English name for either of Eagle Horse's wives.
Eagle Horse's mother-in-law 2
The mother to the other wife of Eagle Horse was Looks At Her (b.ca.1838), who was Crazy Horse's older sister and Worm's and Rattling Blanket Woman's daughter [3, 4, 5, 7].
Eagle Horse's mothers-in-law were related
So Eagle Horse had 2 mothers-in-law. And they were related as nieces/aunts. They both had the same ancestors, i.e. the couple Body Parts and Looking Walker Woman . Spotted Horse Woman = daughter of Smoke, who was a son of Body Parts and Looking Walker . Looks At Her = daughter of Rattling Blanket Woman, who was a daughter of White Cow Woman, who was a daughter of Body Parts and Looking Walker . So once again, we have an example of the "glue effect" of the marriage of Body Parts and Looking Walker Woman.
These multiple relations explain why Owns Spotted Horse Woman was in Crazy Horse's camp during at least 1876-1877. She was in her uncle Crazy Horse's camp where she lived with her grand-children and daughter (who was married to Eagle Horse), along with other relatives. She was not at the Agency as 7 out of her 9 siblings did. Only 2 out of 10 of Smoke's children stayed out in the north, i.e. Owns Spotted Horse Woman and American Horse And she did not stay in her brother American Horse's camp, as could be expected. Which was fortunate for her when American Horse's camp was attacked in September 1876 at Slim Buttes by General Crook and his men, which resulted in the death of her brother American Horse.
Eagle Horse's wives
Eagle Horse's wives were related as nieces/aunts, because their mothers were nieces/aunts. And they were all related to Crazy Horse. At the moment we can not say whether Elk Woman was also known as Mrs. Eagle Horse or Sandy Conroy. The same applies to Eagle Horse's wife with an unknown name.
We need to know the Lakota name of Sandy Conroy. And also the Lakota name of Victoria Standing Bear Conroy. They both must have had a Lakota name. Since they were both born before any Agency was established for the Lakota. Perhaps Victoria Standing Bear Conroy's Lakota name can be found in her letter to Josephine Waggoner ?
Eagle Horse therefore had 2 parents-in-law: 1. Spotted Horse Woman and Thomas John Conroy = parents of Sandy Conroy 2. Looks At Her and Club Man = parents of Mrs. Eagle Horse
The above is based on the assumption that Eagle Horse's stepmother Spotted Horse Woman was also the daughter of Smoke 1 with the same name. If that is wrong, then the above have to be re-evaluated.
An overview of the people mentioned in reply #77 and their relation:
Unknown couple had together 2 sons: 1. Club Man (b.ca.1835) 2. Little Killer (b.1839)
Worm (b.1810) and Rattle Blanket Woman (b.1814) had together 2 children: 1. Looks At Her (b.ca.1838) 2. Crazy Horse (b.1840)
Club Man (b.ca.1835) and Looks At Her (b.ca.1838) had together 8 children, according to Little Killer = Club Man's brother. One of the children was Mrs. Eagle Horse and another was Coffee (b.1858). LaDeane Miller has a name for 6 of these children: 1. Touch the Cloud (b.1850) 2. Club Man 2 (b.1853) 3. His Iron Horse 4. Eagle Horse (b.1869) 5. Recognizing Horse (b.1870) 6. Wounded Twice (b.1874) It is most likely a wrong information that Eagle Horse was Club Man's and Looks At Her's child (unless taken in later years in honour of Eagle Horse who married Club Man's and Looks At Her's daughter). Because Eagle Horse was their son-in-law.
Owns Spotted Horse Woman (b.1834 or 1839) had 5-6 children and presumably all with Thomas John Conroy (b.1836). LaDeane Miller has a name of 4 of these: 1. Sandy Conroy (b.1859) 2. Mary Conroy (b.1860) 3. John Conroy (b.1862) 4. Frank Conroy (b.1864), who married Victoria Standing Bear Conroy who wrote the letter we were discussing in earlier replies.
Eagle Horse (b.1856) had 2 wives, i.e. Elk Woman and unknown woman, and children as described in reply #76.
Most of these people were in Crazy Horse's camp during 1876-1877. At least partly due to a family connection to Crazy Horse. These people sticked together for many years, as can be seen from Crazy Horse Surrender Ledger, Sitting Bull Surrender Census and Pine Ridge Agency Censuses.
Relevant information from Pine Ridge Agency Censuses according to LaDeane Miller:
Eagle Horse Born 1856 married to Elk Woman Pg 94 hide tickets 1- Eagle Horse (Mar 1st) 1886 Pine Ridge pg 115 & 388 1 Jul 1890 Pine Ridge pg 63 1 Jul 1892 Pine Ridge pg 254 1893 Pine Ridge pg 32 4 Mar 1893 Pine Ridge pg 266 1 Jul 1894 Pine Ridge pg 7 30 Jun 1895 Pine Ridge pg 258 30 Jun 1896 Pine Ridge pg 4 30 Jun 1897 Pine Ridge pg 150 30 Jun 1898 Pine Ridge pg 341 30 Jun 1905 Pine Ridge John Eagle Horse Sr
Elk Woman same as Eagle Horse
Sandy Conroy Jun 1886 Pine Ridge pg 262 1887 Pine Ridge pg 35 Jun 1888 Pine Ridge pg 317 1 Jul 1890 Pine Ridge pg 56 4 Mar 1893 Pine Ridge pg 241 Mary (took her sisters name after she died) 1893 Pine Ridge pg 466 30 Jun 1895 Pine Ridge pg 242 Mary 1896 thru 1937 Mary Williams
Was either Runs After Enemy or White Water Woman a sibling of Black Bull ?
This is suggested to take into an account all of the 5 bits below:
1.According to a genealogy information published in Lakota Times in 1986 [1, 2], the couple Runs After Enemy and White Water Woman (aka. Under Water Woman) had together 3 girls: Good Looking Woman, Rattle Blanket Woman (Crazy Horse's mother) and Looks At Her.
on the opposite
2.According to the Clown family , the couple Black Bull (b.1760, d.1816) and White Cow Woman had together 5 children. Two sons; One Horn and Lone Horn and three daughters; Good Looking Woman (b.1810), Rattling Blanket Woman (Crazy Horse's mother) (b.1814) and Looks At It (b.1815). In addition Black Bull had a son named Hump with his second wife Good Voice Woman.
Remark: If either Runs After Enemy or White Water Woman was a sibling of Black Bull. Then the 3 daughters of Runs After Enemy and White Water Woman (as in part 1) would have called Black Bull father in Lakota terms. But Black Bull would actually have been their "father" or more specifically an uncle/nephew.
And vice versa.
If these 3 sisters were biological daughters of Black Bull (as in part 2), then Runs After Enemy would have been their "father" and White Water Woman their "mother".
I am in favour of the Clown family version, i.e. Black Bull being the biological father to these 3 sisters. Both because their Mnikhówozu family tree is thorough. And also because the Clown family version is supported and confirmed in part from an independent source by the Smoke family as Wendell Smoke has written.
We have some examples where Lakotas speak of family relations to the Whites in the broad Lakota terms. Even though both sides should have had enough time together to understand the different meaning of family terms between the two cultures. With the result of a confusion already in the beginning and/or later on, when people passed away who knew the whole picture.
3.According to an information from a descendant/descendants of Mnikhówozu Big Woman [4, 5], the couple Runs After Enemy and White Water Woman had together 1 girl named Big Woman. This Mnikhówozu Big Woman married the Hunkpapa Owl Bull and together they had 5 children. Four boys; Black Coyote, Dog Skin Necklace, Looking Thunder and Long Horn. And one girl; Big Woman (= Big Woman 2). All the boys were killed in the Wounded Knee Massacre "with their first cousin Chief Big Foot" . According to this source, Big Woman 1 was a "full sister" of Worm .
Remark: Here we have again this couple Runs After Enemy and White Water Woman. But now as parents of Big Woman. Here and in the literature the name Big Woman has been linked to Worm and therefore also to Rattle Blanket Woman. So we have another example of a connection between Runs After Enemy - White Water Woman - Rattle Blanket Woman.
This "first cousin" term from above, would fit to the speculation that either Runs After Enemy (RAE) or White Water Woman (WWW) was a sibling of Black Bull. Because according to the Clown family, chief Big Foot was the son of One Horn, who was a son of Black Bull . So we have the lineages: a) Black Bull - One Horn - Big Foot b) sibling of Black Bull (either RAE or WWW) - Big Woman - Dog Skin Necklace. So it fits that Dog Skin Necklace and his brothers would have been first cousins of Big Foot.
So once again, information from the Clown family fits to an independent information.
4.In one of Walter Camp interviews, the name of Hump's father was given as Dogskin Necklace .
Remark: In the terms of the Clown family  in this context, this Hump is Hump 2 = son of Hump 1 (incorrectly also known as High Backbone). Hump 1 was a son of Black Bull. So it would mean that another name for Hump 1 was Dogskin Necklace. Note that Dogskin Necklace was also a name for one of the Mnikhówozu Big Woman's son and a grandson of Runs After Enemy and White Water Woman (part 3 above). So we have yet another possible link between descendants of Black Bull and descendants of Runs After Enemy and White Water Woman, through the name Dogskin Necklace. Remember also the "first cousin" term above (in part 3) and a connection between Rattling Blanket Woman-Runs After Enemy-White Water Woman (remarks in part 2 and remarks in part 3).
5.Big Woman 1 and at least part of her family was with Big Foot at Wounded Knee when the horrible massacre happened [4, 5, 7]. It was Big Woman's son Black Coyote who was an akichita in Big Foot's camp at Wounded Knee . It was Big Woman's son Black Coyote who didn't want to give up his riffle , which the U.S. Army soldiers were not able to handle and therefore the Wounded Knee massacre started.
Remark: Given the preference of close relatives to stay together, this could indicate a family connection between Big Woman and Big Foot. Where we could have together the descendants of the possible siblings Black Bull (Big Foot's father) and Runs After Enemy/White Water Woman (Big Woman's parents).
So this could all be counted for if either Runs After Enemy or White Water Woman was a sibling of Black Bull.
Any thoughts ?
For those who have access to Lakota Times, November, 1986: What is given as the birth year of the 3 sisters; Good Looking Woman, Rattle Blanket Woman and Looks At Her ? and their parents ? What is their husband's names and their children's name ? Is there any additional information about the 3 sisters ? or the couple Runs After Enemy + White Water Woman ?
My Great Great Grandmother, Ownes Spotted Horse Woman, SunGleska win, Had two children with The Blacksmith Irishman she met and married near Fort Laramie, Their son John Conroy,"Wasicula"born 1858, and a daughter Mary born 1855, and possibly another child who Thomas Conroy kept with him.. Mary married twice, 1st marriage was short to a man Last named Clark, and 2nd to Alexander "Sandy"Williams, they were married in Fort Robinson,Nebraska...There never was a child named Sandy Conroy... Deb
I have been in contact with LaDeane Miller. The misunderstanding regarding Sandy Conroy, came about due to a misinterpretation of Pine Ridge Agency Censuses. Where the listed person Mrs. Sandy Williams in the Censuses became Sandy Conroy .
Mrs. Sandy Williams was listed in 4 Censuses. Where her listed age would indicate that she was born in either 1859 (Census from 1886) or 1860 (Censuses from 1887,1888 1890).
Enclosed is a copy of a page from the 1890 Pine Ridge Agency Census. In entry number: 200 = Mrs. Sandy Williams, female, mother, 30 years old. 201-203 = three daughters of Mrs. Sandy Williams 204 = Frank Conroy, male, brother [brother to Mrs. Sandy Williams], 25 years old. 205 = Mrs. Conroy, female, 63 years old.
Since Frank Conroy was listed as a brother of Mrs. Sandy Williams. LaDeane interpreted it as Mrs. Sandy Williams was Sandy Conroy. But as you wrote, Sandy Williams were both names of her husband Alexander "Sandy" Williams. LaDeane has him listed as Alexander Williams, as a husband of Mary Conroy .
According to LaDeane , this Frank Conroy (b.1864): a) was a son of Spotted Horse Woman (b.1839) and Tom Conroy (b.1836) b) married to Victoria Standing Bear (b.1866)
Can you confirm this ?
Who is this Mrs. Conroy, female, 63 years old, in entry number 205 from the 1890 Census ? Is it Owns Spotted Horse Woman ? According to the Census, this Mrs. Conroy was born in 1827. That is a relatively large shift from the years 1834  or 1839  which has been given as the birth year for Owns Spotted Horse Woman. Perhaps an inaccuracy in the registration ?
In your study of Owns Spotted Woman, have you come across another person with the same name of roughly the same age ? Who then could be a mother-in-law to Eagle Horse.
Can you confirm that your gg-grandmother Owns Spotted Horse Woman was the person in the Crazy Horse Surrender Ledger listed as Spotted Horse Woman ? Or was it someone else Spotted Horse Woman who was listed in Crazy Horse Surrender Ledger ?
I hope I am not bothering you with all these questions. Thanks in advance.
The people mentioned in the CNN news mentioned above in reply #85 are: 1. Seth Big Crow ("Seth Big Crow, whose great-grandmother was Crazy Horse's aunt") 2. Elaine Quiver ("Elaine Quiver, another descendant of Crazy Horse")
The CNN news from November 6, 2012 quotes Elaine Quiver and Big Crow from an interview with Voice of America from September 13, 2003 ! 
They are both descendants of sisters/"sisters" of Rattle Blanket Woman.
Seth Big Crow
I guess Seth Big Crow mentioned in the CNN news 2012 is the same person as Seth Henry Big Crow (b.1938, February 14, d.2007, January 19). His grandfather was Henry Big Crow, who was a son of a sister/"sister" of Crazy Horse's mother Rattling Blanket Woman.
Brock mentioned Seth Big Crow several times in the thread News on Crazy Horse Trial and Spotted Tail, in replies #20, 23, 28 .
Elaine Quiver was mentioned by Kingsley Bray on another page of this website :
"Elaine Quiver, descended from a sister of Rattle Blanket Woman, stated (conversation with the author) that Rattle Blanket Woman’s family was Miniconjou." 
"According to genealogical information obtained in 1986, Rattle Blanket Woman's parents were Runs After Enemy and White Water (Under Water) [Woman]. This same information reported two full sisters of Rattle Blanket Woman, Looks At Her and Good Looking Woman, also identifying these women's husbands and details on descendants. [Lakota Times, November 19, 1986.] Elaine Quiver has confirmed to me the details of this genealogy. More recently, statements made in connection with the Clown family legal claim have asserted that Rattle Blanket Woman and the above named sisters were daughters of Black Bull (Black Buffalo), 1760-1815, who was a chief met by Lewis & Clark and recognized by them as the principal chief of the Sicangu Lakota." 
As an possible explaination of the controversy regarding who were biological parents of Rattling Blanket Woman and her 2 sisters. It was suggested in reply #83 that these 3 sisters were "daughters" (instead of biological daughters) of Runs After Enemy and White Water Woman. I guess this matter was/is/will be addressed in Crazy Horse's trial .
It would be interesting if those who have access to Lakota Times, November 1986 can inform us to whom of Rattle Blanket Woman's sister Seth Big Crow and Elaine Quiver were related. And could also inform us about the husbands and children of Rattling Blanket's sisters, according to the genealogy information published in Lakota Times, November 1986.
According to the Clown family and Wendell Smoke [1, 2, 3, 4]:
Black Buffalo (or Black Bull) (Mnikhówozu Lakota) (b.1760, d.1816) and White Cow Woman (aka Iron Cane) (Hunkpatila (Oglala) Lakota) had together 5 children (2 sons and 3 daughters). 1. One Horn (b.1794, d.1834) 2. Lone Horn (aka Black Buffalo 2) (b.1804) 3. Good Looking Woman (b.1810) 4. Rattling Blanket Woman (b.1814, d.1844) 5. Looks At It = (aka They Are Afraid Of Her (b.1815, d.1889)
It means that when Black Bull died in 1816, his children were:
1. One Horn = 22 years old 2. Lone Horn = 12 years old 3. Good Looking Woman = 6 years old 4. Rattling Blanket Woman = 2 years old 5. Looks At It = 1 years old
After the death of her husband Black Bull in 1816. It is not difficult to imagine that the widow White Cow Woman with her 5 children got more "connected" with/associated with/help from relatives. Either her relatives in Oglala camps. Or what seems to have been the case, her husband's relatives in the Mnikhówozu camp. Because all of these children mentioned above have been considered to have grown up among the Mnikhówozu. One of these Mnikhówozu relatives seems to have been the couple Runs After Enemy and White Water Woman (with possible family ties as suggested in reply #83).
This help from relatives could have been in the form of: 1. camping side by side (help with the lodge when needed to relocate, to hunt, etc., although One Horn could have done all or part of the hunting) 2. sharing a lodge 3. adoption or "adoption" (hunka adoption) of the children, especially the 3 youngest sisters.
Therefore this contradiction of who were parents of Rattling Blanket Woman and her sisters.
Post by kingsleybray on Nov 13, 2012 6:38:57 GMT -5
I have a copy of the 1986 issue of LAKOTA TIMES, but it is in storage and I can't get to it at the moment.
It put together a family tree from a number of Lakota sources, and it was the first one I came across which named Rattle Blanket Woman's parents as Runs After Enemy and White Water.
One of the sources was Elaine Quiver, Elaine I have spoken to a number of times, though not in the past five years or so. Elaine is a well respected elder at Pine Ridge, she descends from the Red Fish (Cheyenne River) and Quick Bear (Rosebud) families. She was emphatic to me that the father of both Elk Bellows Walking and Lone Horn II was Red Fish, the Miniconjou chief noted in a number of contemporary sources over the period 1835-68. At that time, 2000-2002, the genealogies were just beginning to come out from Cheyenne River insisting that Lone Horn's father was Black Bull (c. 1755-1815). I asked Elaine about this, she continued to state that Red Fish was the father of Lone Horn, but acknowledged that there was a long-standing 'brother' relationship between the Red Fish and Black Bull lines. By contrast Cheyenne River sources like the Clowns simply state they don't know of any Red Fish family, or more starkly, that there was no such person as Red Fish. That is absurd. I have been told by other sources that there is a Red Fish family today (or anyway 1990s) that lives in the Red Scaffold community at Cheyenne River.
This is one example of family histories that I simply cannot reconcile. I should like to clear it up, but it seems to have got problematic to question, since it is part of the highly contentious claim by the Clowns going through the courts right now, and which is contested by Crazy Horse/Little Hawk relatives at Pine Ridge.
As always there are many sides to these accounts. I know this doesn't bear directly on the issues you raise in this thread, hreinn, but wanted to bring out these points. When I can, I will check that LAKOTA TIMES issue and let you know.