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Colle
Feb 4, 2011 4:39:01 GMT -5
Post by coeurrouge on Feb 4, 2011 4:39:01 GMT -5
from right it is, I think, the Chihenne Charley.
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Post by coeurrouge on Feb 4, 2011 4:36:30 GMT -5
I'm agree with jeroen of Yanozha. Also, I think I ever saw that Nahdozinne is identified as Kaathenay on another photo (it make sense because he was back of Bacathlay, his brother) And if you look carefully Jewett Tissnolthtos seems the same man I identified as Tsinolthtos on the "Last Band topic".
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Post by coeurrouge on Feb 3, 2011 16:49:14 GMT -5
How was called Perico (apache name) by Chiricahuas?
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Post by coeurrouge on Feb 3, 2011 14:58:25 GMT -5
Thanks, My list needs sharing and debates to be exhaustive as possible.
The information (son of Gordo) came from the new book of Sweeney "From Cochise to Geronimo". Gordo (Mexican name) was a 60-70 year old Bedonkohe Chief in 1881. He was killed at Aliso Creek on april 1882.
Who was Nas-ti-dah (history, rank, family link)? And could it be the Native name of Gordo? By the way, is Perico an apache name?
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Post by coeurrouge on Feb 1, 2011 13:26:05 GMT -5
I did not think the wife beating was in the culture of the Apache. The couple lived often on the wife's family. at this time she was protected by her father, her brothers and by the husbands of her sisters.
During the reservation, the social links were still strong for the Western apaches, so the women still be protected by her family.
For the Chiricahuas, 2 factors were differents:
*The war with Mexico and the deceases killed many people in each family, so some women did not have the family links to protect them. And with less men, the Chiricahuas men were more often polygam than orthers apaches. And polygamy incited crisis and some violence on "couple". Also, before, the tradition was to take as wifes, women of the same family. During the reservation period, it was not the case because of the number of the widows. *During the reservation time, because of the psycologic damages of the war, in the past, of the lost of their country (today, the Chiricahuas are the only apaches to not live on their own country), of the refusal to become agricultor (unlike the Western apaches, they never practiced this), of the few hunts, of the forbidden of raiding, the Chiricahuas men were boring, so, much of them drunk. Completely drunk, some of them became violent against anyone they met. And the more closers people of this men were their wife.
The whites took the excuse of wife beating to dictate their culture to Native Americans. But they forgott that wife beating and alcoholism was equal or worse than the Apaches on white society. They did not see that Apache women, in their culture, had more rights than american women (ex : the divorce)
A little smile on this hard subject: When Cochise met Howard, he wore on is hand a bad scar, made by the teeth of his younger wife.
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Post by coeurrouge on Feb 1, 2011 13:02:38 GMT -5
For Moht-sos, I talk about the woman, he left with not his wife (Bash-de-le-hi )and his children, he abandoned (she did not want to go with him) at San Carlos.
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Post by coeurrouge on Feb 1, 2011 12:58:17 GMT -5
On the photo in Fort Marion of Chihuahua and his warrior, it missed on man, Tsina. We are sured of that. from tha name list, José Second does not appear. But 2 names, Lidos-Nigi and Petr that I read (or try) are not in the list of Chihuahua warrior on sweeney book. The Petr boy seems too young to be José Second so... It is more a feeling than a proof....
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Post by coeurrouge on Jan 30, 2011 7:12:39 GMT -5
Who were the 144 Chiricahuas who leave the San carlos reservation on may 1885?
I make a list of 105 people but I have not information for some names, age, relationship and it misses 39 peoples. I will direct the list like this warrior or teenage boy name (age on 1885)/usefull name, family link, information if it happened something for this people during 1885,1886 life *wife name (age on 1885)-children names (age on 1885)of the couple (age). The ? mean that it maybe misses something.
I need you to complete or modify this list. if so, please copy the list and write the modification, thanks.
This is my incomplete list :(p.people,w&tb:warrior and teenage boy)
Naiche's group :(18 p., 8w&tb)
Naiche (29), younger son of Cochise and nephew of Mangas. *Nah-De-Yole (27), daughter of Skinya - Paul (4) , ? *E-Clah-Eh (?) - Dorothy (8?), Bas-Ha-kli (1),? *Ha-O-Zinne (15) Beshe (50?), father of Ha-O-Zinne *Tascelona (45?) *U-Go-Hun (40?), mother of Ha-O-Zinne Atelnietze (37), first cousin of Naiche (Cochise's sister side ?) * 1 wife (name, age?)-? Yanozha (31), first cousin of Naiche (Cochise's brother Juan side?) * 1 wife (name?, 20)-? Zhonne (20), half-brother of Ha-O-Zinne, single Hunlona (20), nephew of Beshe,single Tah-Ni-Toe (?), family at San Carlos. Kanseah (15), orderly of Yanozha
Chihuahua's group: (26 p., 11 w&tb) Kla-Esh (63)/Chihuahua * 1 wife (name,age?)- Ramona (10-14?) * 1 wife (name,age?)- Eugene (6-10?) * Ilth-Gazie (25?)- Osceola (3?), Harcase (6?) * 1 mother in law (name,age?), killed on june 1885 by scouts Ulzana (66), brother of Chihuahua *Nah-Ish-Lah (?)-? *Nah-Zis-EH (?)- 2 children (name,age?) Cathla (55?) *?-? Nah-Do-Zinne (?) *?-? Shoie (?) *?-? Ni-Losh (?) *?-? Eskinye (?) *?-? Lidos-Nigi? (?)/José Second *?-? Dodostenay (?), nephew of Chihuahua? Jolsannie (16), son of Ulzana, killed on june 1885 by scouts. *2 women Nes-chila (30?)-1 girl (name,12?), 1 boy(5?) Counteza (20?)
Geronimo's group : (27 p., 8 w&tb) Goyaklay (62)/Geronimo, grandson of Mahko *Mañonetta(?)-? *She-Ga (35)-Little Robe (2)died on 09/1885, 1 girl (name,age?),? *Shatsha he(?),killed on august 1886-? *Zi-Yeh (?)-Fenton (2) *Tay-Ay-Slath (25?)-1 boy (name,5?) Apache name? (33)/Perico, son of Gordo and second cousin of Geronimo *Ha-Dun-Key(?)-? Yahe-Chul (19)/Fun, half brother of Perico *1 wife (name,19?) Tsina (21), brother of Fun * ?-? Ahnandia (25), second cousin of Geronimo *Tas-De-The (20)-? Moh-Tsos (35) *1 wife (name,age?) Dah-Ke-Ya (25?) *Dohn-Say (22?), daughter of Geronimo- 1 girl (name?,3?) Chappo (20), son of Geronimo * Nochlon (14) *2 women and 1 boy killed on august 1885 by scouts.
Chihennes' group : (23 p., 14 w&tb) Kas-Tziden (85)/Nana, brother in law of Delgadito? *Nah-Dos-Te (65?), sister of Geronimo apache name? (39)/Mangas, son of Mangas Coloradas and uncle of Naiche *Tze-Gu-Jun (40?)/Huera-? *Dilth-Cleyhen (37), daughter of Victorio-?- Istee (10?)son of Victorio *widow of Victorio ?(name,age?) Pet-Zahn (?)/Frijole, captured 12/1885 and died after on Mexico city *?-? Chinche (35), brother of Ponce and nephew of Cochise?, killed 03/1886 *Cah-Gah-Ahsky (?)- 1 baby boy kidnapped by cow-boys 05/1885 Nachol (?), captured 12/1885 and died after on Mexico city *?-? Nezulkide (30?), brother of Kaathenay *?-? Eskinilteze (60?), son of Delgadito *?-? Len-Sey(20?),single Seltoe(18?),single Goso (17),single Delzhinne (20?), son of Juh,single, captured 12/1885 and died after on Mexico city *mother?(name,age)captured 12/1885 and died after on Mexico city? *second widow of Juh?(name,age?)captured 12/1885 and died after on Mexico city? Daklegon (15), half or brother of Delzhinne, son of Juh,captured 12/1885 and died after on Mexico city Daklugie (14?), half or brother of Delzhinne, son of Juh Franck Mangus (14?), son of Mangas and Dilth-Cleyhen
Nednis' Group: (11 p., 6 w&tb) Nat-Cul-Baye (60?)/José Maria Elias *Dejonah (?)-? *1 wife (name,age?)-? La-Zi-Yah (40?) *1 wife (name?,35?)-? Nah-Bay (45?), brother of La-Zi-Yah * 1 wife (name,40?)-1 girl (name?,1) Nezegochin (?) *?-? Kilthdigai (35) *?-? Azariquelch (19)/Zachia, nephew of Juh?, killed on november 1885,single
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Post by coeurrouge on Jan 29, 2011 10:27:11 GMT -5
Wifes of Geronimo on order (try) Alope/Gee esh kizn, mother of 3 children -killed all on march 1851 Nana tha thith, mother of one baby- killed both on december 1858 Chee hash kish, mother of Dohn-say (d.1898) and Chappo (d.1893)-captured and disappeared on january, 1883 Mañonetta -captured on august 1885, died between april 1886 and april 1887. Nah no - captured and disappeared on may 1882. She ga, mother of 1 girl and Little Robe (d.09/1885) - surrendered on september 1886, died on september 1887. Shatsha he - killed on august 1886. Ziyeh mother of Fenton (d.1897) and Eva (d.1911) -captured on august 1885, died on 1904. Ta ayz slath, mother of a little boy- died both between april 1886 and april 1887. Ih tedda, mother of Lenna and Robert Azul -survived of Geronimo
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Post by coeurrouge on Jan 29, 2011 6:03:13 GMT -5
On the facts the book is right. i still regret that the author doesn't WRITE a lot the first 50 years of Loco.
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Post by coeurrouge on Jan 29, 2011 6:02:23 GMT -5
After reading Sweeney's book, I changed my mind on the book of Loco. On the facts the book is right. i still regret that the author doesn't right a lot the first 50 years of Loco. On the chief genealogy it is light. And it is not objectif for the adversaries of Loco. Somethings are weard like Fun, great Bedonkohe warrior and loyal follower of geronimo, becomes on Loco's book a member of loco's band (Chihenne). The author never said that Fun was a part responsible, of the transfert of the chiricahuas to Florida, by following Geronimo. And if the scetch of Geronimo worked, Fun would kill Davis and Chatto. Also I think it is interresting to read this book.
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Post by coeurrouge on Jan 29, 2011 5:52:24 GMT -5
I don't think so. She-ga was with Geronimo at his last surrender on september 1886. And The photo of Taz-ay-Slath was taken at fort Bowie after her capture on august 1885. She went to fort Marion with Chihuahua on april 1886.
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Post by coeurrouge on Jan 13, 2011 12:29:26 GMT -5
After read the Sweeney's new book, I was surprised to learn that Geronimo had a wife who was slained and scalped by Mexicans on august 1886. Could be Shtsha-She?
Also, it seems that Chee-Ash-Kish was captured, not at Casas Grandes on may 1882, but the january, 24th, 1883.
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Post by coeurrouge on Jan 13, 2011 12:21:22 GMT -5
I try an identification after reading Sweeney's new book.
Picking on the photo : 1 : Cathla (Colle, Kutli) 2 : Nezukilde 3 : Neze-Go-Chin 4 : Kla-Esh (Chihuahua) 5 : Eskinye 6 : Dah-Ke-Yah (Geronimo's son in law) 7 : Lidos-Nigi (José Second) 8 : Kas-Tziden (Nana) 9 : Nah-Dozin 10 : Shoie 11 : Ulzana 12 : Ni-Losh 13 : Len-see 14 : Seel-Toe Tsina was the missing warrior I think. I based my identifications on the describtions of the warriors by Sweeney (age, powerful) ad the written names or not on the photo.
I also prepared a challenge, for all of us, about the 144 Chiricahuas who left San Carlos on may 1885...to be continue.
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Post by coeurrouge on Jan 7, 2011 14:52:12 GMT -5
About Tsinolthtos, based on the photo of scouts when the Chiricahuas are prisonners (with Naiche, Mangas, Kaethenay) the man identified at Tsinolthtos seemed to be the man I identified on my photo-montage. About my identification of she-ga and Fun's Wife(?), Kayitah, you may be right that they seemed to be the same person. I forgot this, before : my identification of the train photo. Front Row : Yahe-chul (Fun), Perico, Naiche, Goyaklay (Geronimo), Chappo and Garditha. Second Row : Kanseah, Yanozha, Zhonne, Ahnandia, Moh-tsos (or Kilthdigai), Kilthdigai (or Moh-tsos), Hunlona, Nah-bay, Laziyah and Beshe. Women Row : Ha-o-zinne, Biya-neta, Tsinolthos Wife? and Leosanni. Attachments:
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