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Post by kayitah on Sept 26, 2013 15:10:14 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing, Mithlo. I saw photo no. 2 before, but with with no identification of the three women. I'll look though, but... if you don't know it, the chance any of us know is veeery slight edit: what I have is the date when it was taken - July 14, 1919 at Mescalero
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Post by kayitah on Sept 22, 2013 10:51:20 GMT -5
Thanks for doing all this work, my friend, I very much appreciate it. I haven't gone through my information so I can't say anything about the other of your new findings, but
- Nezulkide was 5'10, the same height as Adilnadzid. So if the man at center (Fly photograph) is Adilnadzid as we have tentatively identified him to be, the man with the cap (who is much shorter) can't be Nezulkide. If anything, the tall man at center (so far identified as Adilnadzid) could be Nezulkide instead of Adilnadzid... Without and new and/or better photographs it continues to be a guessing game... sadly.
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Post by kayitah on Aug 21, 2013 5:39:58 GMT -5
Your right with your thought, dt. Not all of the group photographed by Fly surrendered.
At least two men how have been (tentatively) identified in the photos remained free - Adilnadzid, a Chokonen, and Natculbaye (aka José Maria Elias), a Nednhi.
Others men (names of women and children not reported) remained out according to reports:
Nah-pi-a El-cha-nache
without doubt there were more whose names are long forgotten...
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Post by kayitah on Jun 9, 2013 10:15:45 GMT -5
Hello everyone, for whoever is interested in buying Apache crafts, I can recommend getting in contact with Herb Stevens, director of the San Carlos Apache Culture Center. He is a very open-minded and honest man, and very lighthearted. He is Tonto Apache and a true expert at traditional Apache crafts - and lots more. You can find out more about him using google. He even does moccasin workshops, see here: sarweb.org/?iarc_seminar_moccasin_seminarI also know someone on Ebay who makes them, send me a PM if you want a link to the store there.
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Post by kayitah on May 31, 2013 11:33:39 GMT -5
dt said it very well, thank you my friend.
I think the movie portrays the view the people had back in the day (1880s). It would be nonsense to make a movie entirely politically correct when back then bias was the norm. While Geronimo - An American Legend was beautifully made, it has too much of today's balanced mindset interwoven into it. Ulzana's Raid credits the Apache as excellent tacticians (the hostiles in the movie as well as Ke-ni-tay), shows their affection for loved ones (Ulzana's farewell to his son as well as his mourning, his sorrow and brokenness when he finds out about his son's death), depicts them as trustworty and honest (Ke-ni-tay), and it also shows their dignity and discipline.
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Post by kayitah on May 30, 2013 8:54:03 GMT -5
Hello inde, and welcome
While I understand your feelings, I can assure you that's not the case at all.
We all have the utmost respect for your people and its culture and, even though not always, we recognize stereotypes. Actually, both, movies and books are full of stereotypes.
What I enjoy about Ulzana's Raid is that it's one of the few older movies which uses Apaches (among other Native Americans) portraying the Natives in the movie. The movie is very well made in terms of camera work, the selection of actors/acting performance, costumes, and in that it depicts the Apaches as intelligent, highly mobile, and very disciplined fighters.
Of course, that doesn't give a complete picture of them as a people, but that's something we can't expect from Hollywood. It's not only the case with the Apache, it's also the same with other native peoples, whether american, asian, african, european, as well as with the ancient Celts, Greeks or Romans - I could go on and on. It's Hollywood and Hollywood doesn't care much for authenticity. Dancing with Wolves portrayed the Pawnee in a very bad way, many Japanese are not happy at all with The last Samurai, and the so-much-adored Brave Heart by questionable Mel Gibson is far from being authentic as well.
I am Swiss and we and our country/mentality are always portrayed the wrong way in movies. Russians are always portrayed the wrong way, and Italians and French are stereotyped as well.
In the end, most people have certain stereotypes of another race or culture. While I am a very respectful person who has an honest interest in your people, and still I met both when I was at San Carlos and Fort Apache - people who welcomed me with open arms, who were very happy to converse with me and who had an honest interest as well; and those who seemed to have prejudice, just because I'm white, even though I can't anything for either - neither for being white, nor for what Native American's had to go through because of the egocentric american colonialism and imperialism.
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Post by kayitah on May 2, 2013 11:14:30 GMT -5
I have actually met writers who are mentioned in this forum as credible, and yet they had never met an Apache prior to the publishing of their material. In one particular case, I was shocked to learned that I was the first Apache they had met as they handed me a signed copy of their book. Apparently these 'copy and paste' books provide plenty of evidence for most readers, since the content comes from military records and or various sources of non Indians, 'who only spoke the truth.' Look at the reference index in some of these books and you will find that almost a quarter of the total number of pages comes from someone else s hard work. I was able to list my references on a single page. Very true. Amen. It always baffles and incenses me whenever I get a copy of a "new" book which actually is nothing more but copy-and-paste work. I could name several writers/historians whose books rub me the wrong way because of that.
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Post by kayitah on Apr 24, 2013 19:35:57 GMT -5
Just yesterday I somewhat came to doubt the identification of Kayitah in the Fort Sam Houston photographs... I am aware that we all agreed on the identification, but looking at Kayitah (top row, center image) and "Motsos" at Fort Sam Houston I recognized a strong resemblance. Nose, chin and mouth seem identical, much more so than compared to the man on the left (so far believed to be Kayitah). I would like everyone to know that I don't doubt anyone's knowledge, but this resemblance really raised this question in me and I would like to ask for your opinions. Thanks Attachments:
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Post by kayitah on Apr 8, 2013 21:52:12 GMT -5
Does anyone have the book "Lives of famous Indian Chiefs" by Norman B. Wood? I am asking because there's a variant of the Fort Sam Houston photograph which includes Tissnolthtos, Yahnozha, She-ga, Zhonne, Kayitah, Martine, Kanseah, Chappo (page 541). For comparison of the two photographs: jeroen's post, no. 53 - amertribes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=chiricahua&action=display&thread=1100&page=4link to the image from Wood's book: ushistoryimages.com/images/apache-indians/fullsize/apache-indians-2.jpgPay attention to Zhonne, Martine, and Chappo. In case anyone has the book I would be very grateful for a good scan of that image. Thanks.
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Post by kayitah on Apr 8, 2013 17:20:39 GMT -5
Too bad, I thought we might get a new member in him
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Post by kayitah on Apr 8, 2013 14:06:28 GMT -5
hmm... gandalf, what did you want to tell us? Unfortunately, only the quotes are visible... (at least to me)
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Post by kayitah on Apr 8, 2013 14:01:17 GMT -5
That sounds great, penjady. I'm happy all the producers "want the cake". It's always better to have more than one option.
I wish you and your team/friends a lot of success finishing the production.
Best wishes, Marco
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Post by kayitah on Apr 4, 2013 6:02:14 GMT -5
I would like to thank you too for your always very informative, interesting and valuable contributions. I have learned a lot from you and I highly appreciate the patience, sympathy and honesty with which you address our questions. Thank you, penjady.
It has always been my wish to witness the Chiricahua Apache Freedom Celebration which takes part this weekend, unfortunately I can't afford it right now to travel to the U.S. Nevertheless I wish you and your people the very best going into the future. The Chiricahua have survived through a lot of hardship and they will continue to survive and keep their heritage alive.
I am very excited about your documentary, can't wait to see it and the stories and photos you might post once you get done with your documentary obligations.
I wish you, your family & friends and all of your people a very happy Freedom Celebration! Best wishes from Switzerland, Marco
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Post by kayitah on Mar 23, 2013 5:32:10 GMT -5
A warm welcome to you, Wendy! Feel free to post questions if there is something specific you are looking for and, hopefully, we will be able to help you find what you seek.
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Post by kayitah on Mar 23, 2013 5:27:56 GMT -5
Hello and very welcome! Are you mainly looking for information or photographs, or both?
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