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Post by kayitah on May 25, 2015 11:08:17 GMT -5
Hello chicheman, I have the article, just drop me a PM with your e-mail and I'll send it to you.
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Post by kayitah on Jan 30, 2015 21:20:37 GMT -5
I tried to identify the Chiricahua scouts who were with Britton Davis and who had their photograph taken at El Paso TX, July, 1885 Astoyeh. aka Benjamin Astoyeh No'stle, aka Knox Nostlin No-tolch, aka No'talq Coonie, aka William Coonie Martine, aka Charles Martine or Bah-dah-go-gilth-ilth Charlie, aka As-ka-do-dil-ges Patricio, aka Nelson Gonalces, Gonaltsis, or Ku-nes-tsis Kayitah, aka Martin Kayihtah Dutchy, aka Fritz Dutchy or My-klitz-su unidentified unidentified
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Post by kayitah on Jan 23, 2015 21:05:02 GMT -5
Peaches, also known as Pa-nayo-tisha or Tzo-ay, 'Coyote Saw Him'
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Post by kayitah on Jan 23, 2015 20:53:29 GMT -5
Nana's camp at San Carlos, 1883
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Post by kayitah on Jan 23, 2015 20:29:26 GMT -5
Chiricahua women as prisoners at Guaymas, Sonora, Mexico, c. 1882
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Post by kayitah on Nov 29, 2014 20:19:43 GMT -5
Thank you so much for your contribution, dT. Would be interesting to hear whether you agree with any of the others and/or with which ones you disagree. Do you have any idea who the other two (aside from Chato and Mickey Free) in the photo are? So far I was unable to identify them or to find any matching photographs...
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Post by kayitah on Nov 15, 2014 11:09:31 GMT -5
Hey Everyone!!!! Kayitah..... have a question for you..in the group photo of scouts you say there are men such as Chatto, Dutchy, Astoyeh, Coonie, Mickey Free and Charlie.......But which one do you (or anyone else) think is Charlie?? All my life have heard very interesting stories bout this man and his many travel's (some to far-off places). Also....it is said that Sundayman is in the photo.....so which one is he?? Not sure whether Tsedekizen is in the photo (btw it was taken in July, 1885, at El Paso TX). Among others, Britton Davis' Chiricahua scouts at the time also included Jon-stia (enl. Jan. 1 '85), Das-en-de (enl. Jan. 1 '85), Tuzonne (enl. Apr. 1 '85), José First (enl. March 17 '85), Ramon (enl. March 13 '85), Ah-ga-doh (enl. March 13 '85), Feliz (enl. March 10 '85), Ba-not-chi-ze (enl. Jan. 1 '85), and Pe-de-o-chil-esh (enl. March 20 '85). Pe-de-o-chil-esh held the rank of a sergeant, so it probably wasn't his first duty as a scout. Unfortunately, I didn't find any other entries under that name. Does anyone know who he was? As always, this is how the different photos match-up IMO, seen through my eyes, and I'd welcome differing opinions and an interesting discussion. Benjamin Astoyeh (enl. Apr. 1 '85) No'stle (Knox Nostlin) (enl. Apr. 1 '85) No-tolch (No'talq) (enl. Jan. 1 '85) William Coonie (enl. Jan. 1 '85) Charles Martine (enlisted as Es-kin-e-la-ta Apr. 1 '85 according to Ms. Alicia Delgadillo, 'From Fort Marion to Fort Sill') Charlie (As-ka-do-dil-ges) (enlistment seems to be missing from register, but Britton Davis stated that Charlie was among his scouts in May, 1885 - see Sweeney 'Cochise to Geronimo' p.636 no. 56) Gonaltsis (Patricio) (enl. Apr. 1 '85) I would like to point out that this is the pair I am least convinced about myself; I was torn whether to post it but in the end decided to include it since all of them are only suggestions anyway. Martin Kayitah (enl. March 20 '85) Fritz Dutchy (enl. March 13 '85)
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Post by kayitah on Nov 14, 2014 19:30:30 GMT -5
Any photos of Pionseney and/or Skinya? I don't know of any photos of Skinya and Pionsenay. Most photos of Chiricahua are studio shots by Wittick and Randall, taken after the Chiricahuas' removal to San Carlos. Photos of Chiricahuas made when they had their own rez near Apache Pass may exist (or may have existed), but I assume they're extremely scarce. Sorry
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Post by kayitah on Oct 30, 2014 14:53:42 GMT -5
In the above photo, Martine is on the left (wearing his jacket open), Kayitah on the right.
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Post by kayitah on Sept 17, 2014 13:40:58 GMT -5
Welcome Jerry! Like naiches2 and xframe I also enjoy your articles a lot! Your blog has been helpful to me many times, I found some very interesting historical material there!
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Post by kayitah on Sept 16, 2014 13:51:44 GMT -5
Thanks for posting Daklugie's interesting (but IMO not necessarily correct) explanation, cinemo.
I have never noticed any difference in the sclera of Native Americans (whether Apache or not). The original Apache term was probably "pale eyes", referring to the blue, gray, or green color of the irides common among immigrants from northern and western Europe.
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Post by kayitah on Aug 31, 2014 14:44:22 GMT -5
I completely agree with cinemo and dT.
John Stands In Timber may have mixed up a couple things there. What he probably meant was that both, Crook and Miles, had experience working with scouts prior to becoming acquainted with the Apache. During the wars on the northern plains, in the campaigns against the Lakota, Cheyenne, and Arapaho, Crook had worked a lot with Pawnee scouts. Actually, the Pawnee scouts have glory history as U.S. Army scouts, and the officers generally held them in very high esteem. Cheyenne and Lakota scouts, on the other hand, were very instrumental in forcing Chief Joseph and his Nez Percé to surrender. They intercepted them some 40 miles away from the canadian border, just north of the Bear Paw Mountians. The Nez Percé were forced to turn and fight and, eventually, Joseph and his people surrendered to Miles.
IMO, scouts not familiar with Apacheria would have been of little use. They did not know the country, flora and fauna, did not know the people and their customs, did not speak their language, and were not used to the climate. Add to that the fact that there were enough Apache eager to serve as army scouts. In fact the U.S. Army Register of Enlistments shows that Apache from Arizona (and to a much lesser extent from New Mexico) were among those tribes who served the most enlistments. I am still working with these documents to create a list which will only include enlistments from men born in Arizona and New Mexico. The vast majority of men enlisted in Arizona and New Mexico were Arizona born Apache. In contrast to contemporary opinion, they were not seen as turncoats back in the day. A man had to do what he felt is best for his family, and for many it was clear at the time that further resistance was futile. Plus, many Apache had trust in some of the officers and they respected them (Crook, Crawford, Bourke, B.Davis among others) and even befriended some of them as well as enlisted white men. It's not like they were alienated while living on the rez. Always, whenever there was turmoil on the rez, it either had to do with corrupt/ignorant government agents, a stupid act by some overly ambitious and/or biased army officer, or trouble/feuds with other indians living on the reservation. Back when the Chiricahua had their own reservation at Apache Pass, near Fort Bowie it was supposed that the Fort be closed since there was so little military intervention needed. The majority of people were happy there.
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Post by kayitah on Jul 7, 2014 14:36:53 GMT -5
hi kaleeah, I guess you're referring to this photo... and yes, you're right, third from right is Geronimo The men are, in my opinion: front row, l-r: Kayitah, Chato, Loco, George Wratten, Nana, Becalthey (Bacuthla, Baculthin, Bay-kath-lay), either Martine or Zele IMO, Yahnozha back row, l-r: Coonie, Binday (Bendea), Fun, Chechil, Naiche, Geronimo, probably Tooisgah, Perico
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Post by kayitah on Jul 3, 2014 19:31:56 GMT -5
great to have you back, Mithlo!
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Post by kayitah on Jul 1, 2014 8:16:17 GMT -5
Seems fine I'd spell three of them slightly different if I had to write them phonetically, it's practically negligible, though: Bedonkohe - Be-DON-ke-hay or Be-DON-ku-hay Nednai/Nednhi - NED-nye or NED-nee (I've heard both variants - the latter's ending sounds like in English 'knee') Juh is sometimes pronounced the way you have it (Ho) and sometimes it's Hoo (like in English 'who') Cibecue - SI-buh-cue -> from Grenville Goodwin's 'The Social Organization of the Western Apache': "The Cibecue Valley is called dè-stcì-bìkò' which means "horizontally red canyon", alluding to red sandstone bluffs along its sides, and, when designating all the people living there, local Apache say dè-stcì-bìkò'ndé' (horizonally red canyon people)"
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