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Post by kayitah on Feb 27, 2014 10:10:35 GMT -5
To me it seems the man on the left is the same as in the other photos... Martin Kayitah. Sorry for the bad quality, the only one I have in high-res is the one on the right. Compare the chin, nose, cheek bones, lips (and dimples on both sides), overall expression... and he seems pretty tall too. According to U.S. Army/Government sources, Kayitah was between 5'8 and 5'10 (accounts vary). I'd be interested in your opinions. Thanks.
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Post by kayitah on Feb 17, 2014 12:02:02 GMT -5
It's indeed a very nice photograph. It was made by E.S. Curtis at White River AZ, c. 1907, so I suppose they are White Mountain Apache. Curtis also photographed Geronimo in March 1907 at Carlisle, Pennsylvania, right before Geronimo participated in Theodore Roosevelt's inauguration parade. I don't know of any other photos of Chiricahuas by Curtis, and I don't think there are any. Follow this link for more photos by Curtis, including that of Geronimo azmemory.azlibrary.gov/cdm/search/collection/acmcurtis
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Post by kayitah on Feb 4, 2014 7:39:37 GMT -5
Hello everyone I have been wondering for some time who this man is and whether the photographer's information could be correct. I have never seen the kind of face paint he wears, and since photographs where Nde wear face paint are scarce anyway, I have no idea whether it says anything about his tribal affiliation. If I remember correctly, I asked the same question a couple years ago; back then no one was able to answer this. I thought to give it another chance, considering all the new information that came along in the meantime as well as new and knowledgeable board members. According to the photographer his name is "Ba-cluth (Roaming Coyote), Chiricahua Scout from Chato's Band". The photo was taken at the same time as the studio photographs of the Chiricahua women & children captured in August 1885 and sent to Fort Bowie (Neschila, Gazie, Huera among others) as well as two photos of Dutchy, one of Alchesay, Esh-kin-tsay-gizah aka Mike (White Mountain Apache scout from Alchesay's band) and a couple others. I was also wondering whether the name - Ba-cluth - could be Chiricahua dialect or not. Follow this link for a better view at Ba-cluth: cdm15330.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm/singleitem/collection/p15330coll22/id/36653/rec/1Any help/suggestion is highly appreciated. Thanks.
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Post by kayitah on Feb 1, 2014 11:26:45 GMT -5
Your identifications are awesome to say the least, great work!!
I agree in nearly all cases, but I can't see many women that resemble Hah-dun-key, assuming she's one of the two women in the photo made in Florida (which shows Perico, two women - supposedly Hah-dun-key and Bi-ya-neta - and two children).
It seems to me no. 6 and no. 9 are the only ones with a resemblance to the woman wearing a dark skirt in the 'family photo' from Florida...
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Post by kayitah on Jan 29, 2014 19:45:26 GMT -5
googled it and found the episode you're referring to: arcturi.com/AncientAliens/DogonPeopleAndAliens.htmlIt's an interesting thought and while I find mystical and cryptozoological theories quite exciting and fascinating in an entertaining way, I can't positively say that I believe in it. That doesn't mean I think it's nonsense or wishful thinking and respect anyone's opinion and beliefs. Your thought is very interesting though. Actually, even though I can't say 'yes' to believing in the existence of aliens, I had exactly the same thought about the Gan headdresses. Some things we don't know or have no proof for, which makes it hard for us to belief or imagine. On the other hand, I know about something witnessed by my mom, her sisters and my grandparent that they have no other explanation for than 'power', whether natural or supernatural. They're all very down to earth, not superstitious at all. My grandfather was the most-down-to-earth guy you could possibly find. Hardworking, honest and happy with his life. If what they told me - independently and on individual occasions - would have been told me by someone else, I might not have believed it.
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Post by kayitah on Jan 28, 2014 8:02:17 GMT -5
left: Mohtsos at Cañon de los Embudos, Sonora, Mexico. So far I had him as Besh, Haozinne's father, which is obviously wrong. The picture at center, which was also taken at the same occasion, clearly shows that it's the same man as in the images on the left.
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Post by kayitah on Jan 27, 2014 17:52:22 GMT -5
Sorry Dietmar, I should have remembered that since you posted the instructions just recently *shameonme* Thank you for the reminder and for copying the pics to the server
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Post by kayitah on Jan 27, 2014 16:48:04 GMT -5
Could this be the same man (Chiva)
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Perico
Jan 27, 2014 16:13:49 GMT -5
Post by kayitah on Jan 27, 2014 16:13:49 GMT -5
Here's a photo of Perico with his wives, Biyaneta and Hahdunkey, probably at Fort Pickens, Pensacola, Florida - The following information is from Alicia Delgadillo's book "From Fort Marion to Fort Sill". Perico and Biyaneta's children: - Dolly (born 1887, date of death unknown; married Lawrence Mithlo in 1908) - Dora (birthdate unknown, died Aug. 21, 1900) - Elmer (birthdate unknown, died March 22, 1901) - Isabelle (born 1895, date of death unknown; married Clarence Enjady, a Mescalero Apache) - Wesley (birthdate unknown, died 1905) *I just noticed a mistake, nothing big; she writes that "Dolly was born in March 1887, five months prior to her half-brother Harry" but also that Harry was "born in July 1887 at Fort Marion". (p. 219 Perico, Dolly / p. 220 Perico Harry) Perico's children by his younger wife, Hahdunkey: - Eloise (born May 10, 1892, date of death unknown; married Kent Kayitah) - Harry (born in July 1887, date of death 1983; wrote a brief autobiography in 1918) *The following confuses me: "Perico had two remembered children by Hahdunkey: Frederick, born at Fort Pickens on March 30, 1888, and Eloise, born in 1892 at Mount Vernon." - see p. 219 / Perico Frederick, born at Fort Pickens?
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Post by kayitah on Jan 27, 2014 14:31:06 GMT -5
Here's a better view of this image:
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Post by kayitah on Jan 25, 2014 11:27:02 GMT -5
Thank you very much for the link to this very interesting book! Herbert Welsh was a member of the Indian Rights Association, as was Gen. George Crook.
Even though Mr Welsh's choice of words reveal that he is in no way free of prejudice and annyoing clichées this is still a very informative and important little book since it includes personal accounts from the prisoners at Fort Marion. It also contains correspondance from Charles B. Gatewood that shows the oh-so-gallant lieutenant in a different light; he certainly did an admirable job as an officer of the U.S. army, but he was not nearly as sympathetic with the Chiricahuas as generally believed. I do not want to take anything away from him - he may well have been an honest and pragmatic man.
I think if any of Emmet Crawford, Britton Davis or John Bourke would have been around in 1886 they would have been the choice to accompany Kayitah and Martine to the Aros River in the Sierra Madre.
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Post by kayitah on Jan 12, 2014 8:27:19 GMT -5
That's awesome news, thank you very, very much, Dietmar. The Apache board has been very quiet since the photo's can't be viewed anymore. I am positive this will increase activity and discussions here.
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Taza
Jan 8, 2014 17:35:09 GMT -5
Post by kayitah on Jan 8, 2014 17:35:09 GMT -5
Hello and very welcome, metek Unfortunately, there seems to be a major issue with the bandwidth, which may also be the reason many of the already posted photos can not be viewed anymore. Best wishes, Marco
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Post by kayitah on Dec 24, 2013 18:51:59 GMT -5
That's actually a very interesting topic. It is known that Apaches travelled into Navajo country for trading. They also visited some of the Pueblo settlements; the Dilzhe'e (Tonto) frequently visited the Hopi back when the latter were living near present-day Winslow, Arizona. For anyone interested in details, here's the link to a very interesting article (page 5) published in "Glyphs". The Dilzhe'e, the northernmost of the Western Apache, travelled as far north as Flagstaff, but I don't think any Apache band went (at least regularly) as far as southern Utah. In peaceful days, Ndé - like any nomadic or semi-nomadic people - lived from what they could gain from the land they lived on. Travelling large distances, especially north, does not seem lucrative considering the barren land of southern Utah. Such a journey into far-away foreign territory would have been extremely arduous, dangerous and, most of all, it was extremely uncertain in its outcome and could force a group of people to exhaust any built up stocks of food. Grenville Goodwin's "The Social Organization of the Western Apache" is an excellent study/research and, most importantly, a first-hand account of their way of life. The book is rare and, if it can be found, rather expensive, but it is well worth the money. Actually I think it is unparalleled to this day.
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Taza
Nov 6, 2013 18:06:41 GMT -5
Post by kayitah on Nov 6, 2013 18:06:41 GMT -5
quick question if you don't mind. in the Fly photograph above - which person is Nana? thanks! dT Nana is to Geronimo's left, sitting between Lt. Maus and Geronimo, wearing a straw hat
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