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Post by dT on Dec 2, 2015 21:57:01 GMT -5
Very cruel days - what happened to Daklegon. Much hatred, very strong bigotry. It makes you lose faith in human nature.
dT
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Post by dT on Dec 2, 2015 21:54:28 GMT -5
Here's an interesting tidbit. I was doing research in Southern Arizona, going through old autobiographies from the 1850's to 1890's. I came across one quick note from a man living in Tucson. It was just a short remark, and he didn't consider it to be a 'big thing'. He moved on to other comments. But his words said something like this ...
"The locals here in Tucson are organizing, so they can go and clean out the Apaches at San Carlos."
So this type of attitude was prevalent for the day. I don't think that the "locals" did "clean out San Carlos", but it shows the deep prejudices during that time period.
dT
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Post by dT on Nov 10, 2015 23:17:32 GMT -5
I thought that the discussion in Karl Jacoby's book about the early days of Mexico and the O'odham Nation was especially helpful. That early history was a "bonus" in the book and I thought it was eye-opening. I haven't yet reached the discussion of the Massacre itself.
I am also hoping that a member of the Aravaipa Community will come here and offer some thoughts about the Massacre. I would like to see that point of view expressed.
This forum mostly focuses on history. My point of view is different. It is extraordinary to me that the massacre of so many people can be "forgotten" as if there are no consequences. Our society pretends there is no Spirit World. But the violent deaths of 144 people, mostly women and children, is not something that simply disappears ... as if it never happened. Too many people dead, too many treaties broken, too much land stolen.
dT
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Post by dT on Nov 9, 2015 23:50:49 GMT -5
Interesting. Can you help me - who was the father of Kaatenay? Here is what I am really asking. Was there a direct bloodline connection between Kaatenay and Vitorio?
dT
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Post by dT on Nov 9, 2015 12:33:23 GMT -5
YES - When the important choice happened, John McCain chose money instead of values. It has been an education for me personally - to see how much the voices of the Apaches are ignored, in Arizona and in Washington DC.
dT
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Post by dT on Nov 7, 2015 21:25:02 GMT -5
there are people here who have very detailed knowledge of the family lines of the Chiricahua Apaches. Your story about Ernst Schultz seems confusing. Perhaps he existed and went back to Europe. It is not clear how this would link you to an Apache bloodline. Doesn't it seem more likely that Mr Schultz would marry a Mexican woman, if he was seeking gold in Mexico? Your dark complexion could be from a Mexican bloodline ... that is a real possibility.
I think that Cochise had one wife who was Mexican. I thought I read that somewhere. But any person within Cochise's bloodlines did NOT leave the tribe. So it appears unlikely that Mr. Schultz could marry someone related to the Cut The Tent episode.
I also want to remind everyone - You can always have your DNA tested. there might be enough DNA information in official records to verify whether someone has a link to Apache families or not. Just a thought.
Good luck with your search. As I said before ... other people here can confirm/deny your story.
good luck, dT
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Post by dT on Nov 3, 2015 20:18:39 GMT -5
welcome here !!
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Post by dT on Nov 3, 2015 20:17:17 GMT -5
Amelia .. I sent you a message. see the top of the screen. good luck! dT
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Post by dT on Oct 29, 2015 19:04:17 GMT -5
Please be very patient. Do not be discouraged if you do not receive an immediate reply. Come and check back here occasionally, and look for an answer. There are people on this forum who are tremendously knowledgeable about the Apache (Nde) family histories. These people only visit sometimes, but they do come here! So just be patient and watch to see if you receive a helpful reply.
I am not Apache, but members of the Nde do use this site.
I send you best wishes, dT
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Post by dT on Oct 29, 2015 18:57:45 GMT -5
There is a book about the Camp Grant Massacre. I ordered it, and after much patient waiting it arrived today.
"Shadows at Dawn" by Karl Jacoby
I haven't had a chance to read it yet. But it certainly looks like the author did extensive research, the book is very detailed. I am hoping that the book will fit together some pieces of the jigsaw puzzle, and perhaps help to explain some of the questions.
dT
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Post by dT on Oct 24, 2015 23:52:19 GMT -5
there are many possible interpretations. there is also a video made by the Crows that refers to themselves as the "Contrary Warriors". However, I don't think they are using the word "contrary" to mean the same thing that the Lakotas do when they talk about their Heyoka tradition. I will be honest and say that I have not seen that video from the Crow Nation. I just know that it exists.
dT
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Post by dT on Oct 23, 2015 21:06:26 GMT -5
Jasper4. Thank you, that was useful to know. It was a VERY difficult time for the Chiricahua people. How many tribes or ethnic groups can say that they were almost exterminated completely? So when we keep that in mind, the Apaches survived a terrible ordeal. I would expect differences of opinion and fighting amongst bands. I think it's a shame that the Chiricahuas are scattered between Oklahoma, Mescalero, and San Carlos. And some in Mexico and other places. Your people were scattered to the four winds of the Earth. But hopefully their spirit remains strong out there!
dT
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Post by dT on Oct 10, 2015 21:21:19 GMT -5
Cinemo ... I didn't read all of the links of that page yet. Thank you. It speaks volumes about the public sentiment in Arizona, that the Governor of Arizona would court-martial Whitman for making sympathetic statements about the Indians. Yet, the Governor knew full well that it was women and children that were slaughtered.
I think that you are right - Whitman is exonerated by the fact that there was a Cavalry detachment (Stanwood) and they were absent. But I notice the absence of that Cavalry was very convenient timing for Oury and his Massacre Party - I think he must have been informed that Stanwood would not be present.
Yes, I did see Whitman's report that the 128 warriors were present on the 28'th, just 2 days before the massacre. I cannot imagine how these men could flee, leaving their women and children behind. The Chief Eskiminzen grabbed his youngest daughter and ran with her to the hills. He was a Pinal Apache, by the way. But apparently few other Aravaipa did this .. it seems difficult to understand. The O'odham warriors who attacked (92 men) were mainly armed with clubs and knives, and the Aravaipa could have defended with knives and arrows if they stayed organized. Yes certainly the Mexican and White Men had rifles, but it is reported they mostly shot at escapers. So most victims were bludgeoned or stabbed to death. But it is hard to judge the actions of the warriors - WE WERE NOT THERE. It is easy for me to write words on a computer, not so easy to be there on a dark morning in Arizona. I still think there is more to the story, and why the warriors did what they did.
Thank you with your help with the research articles!
My Friend Jasper4 is Correct - This was a DARK DAY for Arizona.
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Post by dT on Oct 10, 2015 13:08:18 GMT -5
I am taking time to try to piece together ... WHAT really happened?
Lt. Whitman was very new to Arizona. He had only been recently deployed. He was sent to Arizona in the middle of the Apache Wars. Whitman quickly found himself with impossible expectations. Cochise was still at war, and causing major casualties and damage. Whitman did not have any mounted Cavalry, only foot soldiers inside his fort. No doubt Whitman was very aware about the Chiricahua Apache attack on Fort Bowie (The Battle of Apache Pass, 1862, attack by Cochise on Army fort near Willcox, Arizona). Probably he decided to avoid risking his men by sending them outside on foot. This meant that really Lt. Whitman was not properly equipped by the US Army to do his job. The people in Arizona did not want a "peace" with the Apaches - they wanted them destroyed. Whitman could not go and fight the Apaches. It's not surprising that the white people in Tucson decided that Whitman and his men were useless. This probably explains why Whitman was reluctant to go to the assistance of the Apaches in Camp Grant.
At the same time .. the Apaches at Fort Grant were essentially "set up". The Washington Government was pursuing a policy of putting Indians on reservations. So the Western Apaches were disarmed, in exchange for rations. But the white people in Tucson were scamming the Government system. They took the money for meat and grains from the Government, but substituted poor quality food. The Indian agents were also scamming the system by taking some of the supplies and re-selling them. So the Apaches did not get the food that they were promised, and not good quality food. Worst of all, the Western Apaches near Camp Grant were completely unprotected. Lt. Whitman could not come to their assistance if there was a major problem - but this fact was never communicated to the Apaches. They were extremely vulnerable in their camp.
Bill Oury figured all of this out - and exploited it. He had the skills of a Texas Ranger, and knew how to set up ambushes and travel over remote country. Many white people in Arizona had strong bigotry and hatred against the Apaches anyway - this was the middle of the Apache Wars. A lot of cruelty existed on both sides, and the settlers knew that the Apaches could be very unforgiving. It seems clear that Oury knew he would be killing a lot of women and children in his attack ... and apparently this was his attitude. If you look at the words of Britton Davis in his book "The Truth About Geronimo", he says that renegade Apaches were hunted down like bad dogs. Not people, just dogs. Bill Oury had the same attitude, and applied it to all Apaches ... woman and children as well.
The result was a tragedy.
Many things still do not add up.
1. Why did all of the Apache warriors leave the camp before the attack? Were they tricked? The 'explanation' that they were all hunting seems very unlikely. Over 100 warriors, all hunting, and no guards at their camp?? Doubtful.
2. Whitman says that he got word of the attack on the morning it happened, while he was eating breakfast. Really - how??? If a rider came from Tuscon, that would mean they rode through the night. Again, not likely. There are big questions about whether some soldiers at Camp Grant were complicit in letting the Apaches be slaughtered (not necessarily Whitman, but other soldiers under him).
3. It seems likely that Whitman's men MUST have heard the shooting during the massacre at the Apache camp. He did not report this, and apparently did not respond immediately.
4. The attacking party is reported to have used the major road connecting Tucson with Camp Grant. Surely a lot of people must have noticed 150 armed men going down that road? There appears to be a Conspiracy of Silence about Oury and his Massacre Party.
dT
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Post by dT on Oct 9, 2015 23:38:49 GMT -5
Cinemo ... thank you for finding that letter.
these words ... "I immediately sent the two interpreters, mounted, to the Indian camp, with orders to tell the chiefs the exact state of things, and for them to bring their entire party inside the post. As I had no cavalry, and but about fifty infantry (all recruits), and no other officer, I could not leave the post to go to their defense. My messengers returned in about an hour with intelligence that they could find no living Indians."
In my opinion ... a bad response by Whitman. Whitman had 50 men, with arms. and he is saying that he is not prepared to walk on foot to the Apache camp to provide a defense. In addition, no guards were posted with the Apaches at all. This is gross incompetence. It doesn't look like anyone was trying very hard to really protect the Indians, despite the promises made by the Army. I also don't believe that Whitman could have failed to hear the rifle shots in the distance.
I personally suspect that Oury, who led the massacre, had information that most of the warriors were not in the camp. And apparently Oury was also well aware that Whitman would not come to intervene. It seems very possible - that Oury deliberately set out to exterminate the Apache woman and children. That was the intended mission. But I have no proof of this ... it's probably impossible to ever prove/disprove. I will keep digging for documents.
thanks for posting! dT
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