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Post by tkavanagh on Aug 13, 2016 17:58:04 GMT -5
No, that is not Satanta. 1) To the best of my knowledge, Satanta was never reported to have a shirt of shell armor. 2) I believe this is the Comanche known as Pohowiquasso [/puhihwitU kwasu/ 'iron shirt’], who signed the 1861 Confederate treaty at Fort Cobb. [and thus obviously not the "Pohebits Quasso" allegedly killed in 1858.]
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Post by tkavanagh on Jul 21, 2016 7:15:55 GMT -5
See my replies above.
The well known Kwahada Comanche headman named Tumotsucut, who died ca 1881, had no surviving children. The less well known Penateka Comanche man named Tumotsucut, who died ca 1883,had no surviving children. Anyone else with a black beard could be nicknamed Tumotsucut. I used to be. Now I am Esimotso. If your Tumotsocut was born in 1857, he was only 18 years old in 1875 when Quanah AND Tumotsocut came in. Not old enough to be a headman.
In re Empire: put it down, wash your eyes, forget you ever read it. If he can't spell *my* name right, how can you expect him to get the rest of Comanche history right.
tk
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Cochise
Jul 4, 2016 19:21:40 GMT -5
Post by tkavanagh on Jul 4, 2016 19:21:40 GMT -5
coeurrouge: I'm well aware of the subject of this thread. I was merely commenting on the citation of Schlesier and Lehmann when someone called me out on my creds, to which I responded. Sorry for the diversion. I'll go back to lurking.
tk
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Cochise
Jul 3, 2016 17:49:32 GMT -5
Post by tkavanagh on Jul 3, 2016 17:49:32 GMT -5
Hi Dietmar: I am in the midst of a critical examination of the so-called "Battle of Yellow House Canyon," which, of necessity, involves a critical look at Lehmann, not only his two books, but also his testimony in Willis Glenn's (one of the buffalo hunters) depredation case, and several narratives which Glenn reproduces in his unpublished memoirs (on microfilm at U Texas El Paso). My immediate conclusion: there were no Comanches at Yellow House. Unidentified Apaches, yes; Herman Lehmann, no. To be blunt,I find Lehmann almost totally untrustworthy.[There is a comment in William Chebatah's _Chevato_ to the effect that most Comanches felt/feel that he "exaggerated".) For example, in the relevant part of _Nine Years_, alleged to "corroborate" John Cook's _Border and Buffalo_ , (p 172)I find it to be copied almost word for word directly from Cook (p.285). [That is, not "corroboration," but "plagiarism"]
I cannot identify any of the Comanche names his gives in the text (except of course Quanah).
I like Zesch's book (I am cited in it); he has been very helpful in my current research. I do feel he was not critical enough about Lehmann.
Yes, Lehmann was German; according to Glenn, he spoke English with a German accent.[From Glenn: "I rember, dat vas me, I have got dat ball in me hip now, us Injuns always thought dat youse was soldiers, but now I know that you vas buffalo hunters by them remarks..." ]
From 102F (38.8C), Oklahoma, tk
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Post by tkavanagh on Jul 2, 2016 19:14:38 GMT -5
Mr RedPaint, Since you apparently do not know me, let me introduce myself. I am sitting in the heart of Comancheria right now, continuing what has been my life's work for the last 46 years, the Numunuu. I have a PhD from the University of New Mexico, and have published three books, and numerous articles on the Comanches, including the Smithsonian's Handbook of North American Indians. I have been the Consulting Anthropologist for the Comanche Nation and the Comanche Nation College. I have been a member of the Tuepukunuu, the Comanche Little Pony Society, since 1972. I know whereof I write. Your call.
tk Thomas Kavanagh, PhD
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Cochise
Jun 30, 2016 22:22:11 GMT -5
Post by tkavanagh on Jun 30, 2016 22:22:11 GMT -5
Forget both Schlesier and Lehmann. -Schlesier puts too much emphasis on the Comanche migration stuff (myth) EL Clark got from Siachinikia which he then sent to Wm Clark for use tin the sign language book. -Lehmann, and/or his ghost writers, was a plagiarist (more likely the latter as I am more and more convinced that he could barely read or write.) I don't believe Lehmann was ever with Comanches pre 1877
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Post by tkavanagh on Nov 6, 2015 6:41:36 GMT -5
Re Nelson Lee, the late Mel Thurman had a critical analysis in Plains Anthropologist some years ago. I think Mo Foster also had a critical review questioning the need for a new edition.
I have no doubt that some Comanche somewhere sometime ate a horse, maybe two. So might you. Just to try it, doncha know. That does not, however, make it a regular, customary, practice.
And anyway, your recollection is of the recollection of someone who thought/remembered that some Comanches went out hunting, possibly for horses, not that they actually ate any.
Why go out hunting horses when you have plenty right there? Is coby [wild horse] better than puku [domestic horse]?
;-)
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Post by tkavanagh on Nov 3, 2015 6:22:26 GMT -5
Announcement: Attachments:
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Post by tkavanagh on Nov 3, 2015 6:19:46 GMT -5
Gwynne is full of pukukwitap. Not only is he wrong about C being the "only" (vide Nez perce, et al), I sometimes wonder about that basic "factoid": how much did C actually breed horses themselves, or is this a myth intended to explain how they got so many [as the myth that they ate horses is intended to explain what they did with them all? (selling them is never considered)].
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Post by tkavanagh on Oct 20, 2015 18:50:27 GMT -5
Allegedly (Numunuu folk etymology) it was because eating mescal caused the particular intestinal reaction.
tk
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Post by tkavanagh on Sept 1, 2014 16:56:59 GMT -5
Not as such, nor as any clearly identifiable NumutekwapU ethnonyms for "Sioux", e.g. /papi tatsukwerU/ 'head pounder.'
tk Esimotso
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Post by tkavanagh on Aug 31, 2014 16:46:22 GMT -5
Let me also throw this out: mentions of Cheyennes in the the Spanish Archives of New Mexico, as extracted from _The Comanches: A History_: In November 1805 several Yamparikas, unnamed, visited the new governor, Joachín del Real Alencaster ... In his report on the encounter, Alencaster noted that the Yamparikas, who had “formerly lived to the north,” were now to be found on the Rio Colorado “near . . . the Conchos.” ... The movement of those Yamparikas from the Arkansas River may have resulted from pressures exerted by the arrival of several new groups from the north, including Kiowas, whose advance the Yamparikas and Jupes had long resisted, Cheyennes—called by the Spaniards Flecha Rayada ‘striped arrows’, in Comanche the paka naboo ‘painted arrows’—and Cuampes. ... in May 1807 Flechas Rayadas—‘striped arrows’, that is Cheyennes—and Cuampes—probably Arapahos—camping on Almagre Creek sent word to Santa Fe that they wanted to trade “because they needed some things.” Governor Alencaster sent them a flag and 100 pesos worth of goods and told them that if they made a formal request for peace he would give each chief a certificate of chieftainship, canes of office, and medals (Loomis and Nasatir 1967:452). In September the Cuampes chief sent word to Santa Fe that he was seeking to open trade with New Mexico “on the same terms as with the Comanche” (N. Salcedo 1807); it is not known whether there was any further contact.
tk Esimotso
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Post by tkavanagh on Aug 31, 2014 10:53:33 GMT -5
Please excuse this long post. This in re: PH's claim the "Comanche hostility against new Mexico spiked significantly in the late 1760s, continuing through the 70s,..."
This is an extract of a long paper I did for the New Mexico Historical Review on the historical context of the folk-play "Los Comanches."
Adolph F. Bandelier was a Swiss-born historian and anthropologist, but without institutional affiliation he subsisted on contracts. In the late 1880s, he was employed by the Hemenway Expedition to the Southwest, sponsored by Mary Hemenway of Boston, to gather documentary materials on the history of the Spanish southwest. In contrast to other such collectors, Bandelier generally did not gather the original paper, but made careful manuscript and typewritten transcripts, often giving the dates of his transcriptions which can be matched with entries in his diaries. The manuscripts and typescripts were bound into volumes and exhibited at the 1892 Columbian Exposition in Madrid as the “Bandelier Collection of copies of Manuscripts relative to the History of New Mexico and Arizona.” A calendar listing of those transcripts was published in 1895 in the Report of the United States Commission to the Columbian Exposition at Madrid, 1892-93. The bound original transcripts were placed in the Special Collections of the Tozzer Library, Harvard University. Because “it is important to ascertain the cluster of years when the Apaches, the Comanches, the Navajos and the Yutes harassed certain villages most and the numbers of their victims,” Bandelier made extracts from the Libros de Entierros, the surviving burial ledgers of several pueblos, including Pojoaque, Nambe, San Juan, Santa Clara, Galisteo, and Isleta, as well as from San Felipe Neri of Albuquerque -- it is not clear why he did not also include neither Taos, nor the Villas of Santa Cruz and Santa Fe -- for years covering most of the eighteenth century. Of immediate interest here {i.e., my NMHR article}is a transcript of the Libro de Entierros de Albuquerque, Año de 1777, Fojas 7 y 8, the ‘Book of Burials in Albuquerque, 1777’, titled by Bandelier, Fe de Sepultura de las Victimas de la Matanza de Tomé, ‘Certificate of the Burial of the victims of the Tomé Massacre,’ prepared by Fray Andrés García of Albuquerque. The entry began, “In this Book of Deaths of the Parish of San Felipe Neri of Albuquerque, on the twenty-sixth of May, in the year 1777.” There followed a list of twenty-one individuals, eighteen adult men, two teenaged boys, and one teenaged girl. This entry seems to verify, at least in general terms, the veracity of the story of a massacre at Tomé, and gives a specific date, May 26, 1777, the feast day of San Felipe Neri, patron of the Albuquerque church of which Tomé was a chapel. However, the list included only two Pinos, a José Miguel Pino and a Alexandro Pino, neither of whom apparently was related to Pedro Baptista Pino. Bandelier’s extracts from other burial registers offer some additional contextual information about "muertes hecha por las Indios Gentiles." Most of those were committed by Comanches, although Bandelier also included Utes, Apaches, and Navajos. The total number of Comanche attributed deaths for the decade prior to 1779 is 26. To this total one should add the twenty-one from Tomé from May, 1777 and another thirty-four reported in the Albuquerque Libro de entierros for 1776-1778. The importance of this latter data is that the total does not begin to approach Anza’s reported “hundreds of deaths” attributed to Cuerno Verde, nor does it confirm Prince’s claim that Comanches were rampaging through the entire Rio Arriba before the attack on Tomé. A similar discrepancy between claims of massacres and church burial records occurred in 1750 when governor Tomás Vélez Cachupín reported that “During the five-year term of my predecessor, . . . as many as 150 of the Pecos perished at their hands” Charles W. Hackett (ed.), Picardo’s Treatise on the Limits of Texas and Louisiana. (Austin: University of Texas Press, 1931–46), 3:328. However, as John Kessell pointed out Kiva, Cross, and Crown, 546, n 24, the Pecos burial book for that period records only fifteen deaths attributed to Comanches, plus another twelve from an attack in 1746.
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Post by tkavanagh on Aug 31, 2014 10:25:46 GMT -5
First: Do not, I repeat, DO NOT, attempt to make any sense out of anything in _The Comanche Empire_, neither the "historical" chronologies, nor the "ethnography." Except for those parts lifted bodily from my work, they will be bogus.
As for where the above interaction may have taken place, we have to say, again first, that this part of the 'oral history' is not widespread among the Numunuu, as are the general outlines of Ten bears' history, but are specific to Joe A. Having said that, No, Joe A was silent as to those geographic details. But since TB was Yamparika, the northernmost of the proto-Comanche Plains Shoshoneans and who maintained ties with the Nuwenuu at Wind River the longest (up to the 1830s), there is the strong likelihood that it was in the Wyoming area. [It may be noted that Joe A's *paternal* great-great-grandmother was Crow.]
tk Esimotso
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Post by tkavanagh on Aug 31, 2014 6:31:17 GMT -5
In my forthcoming edited book, "The Life of Ten Bears," Numunuu author Joe Attocknie claims that his ancestor, Ten Bears, was orphaned when his family group on a tipi-pole cutting trip was ambushed by "Sioux." There were two survivors, the "walking but not yet weaned" Ten Bears and his older brother. The brother was taken captive, the infant was left to die but was found by searchers. Ten Bears was “upwards of eighty years old” when he died at Ft. Sill in 1872; thus he would have been born about 1790" (Battey, Kiowa School teacher).
Ten Bears "... grew up and became familiar with the story of the fate of his father, mother, and brother. Thus, although the Comanches had other enemies, the enemies that stood foremost in his mind were the Sioux who had killed his family. Ten Bears haunted and harassed the Sioux camps with mounted war parties, sometimes alone. His most successful method was to wait just out of sight of the Sioux camp and to attack the first Sioux that left camp at early morning. He would chase the surprised early riser and lance him off of his horse almost within the camp. The other Sioux, who by then had mounted and gave chase to this early-morning killer, were led into a Comanche war party’s ambuscade."
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