Gardner at Fort Laramie 1868

[mopar440]

Aug 18, 2015 16:22:51 GMT -5 kingsleybray said:

Think it might be a wild goose chase, Dietmar. You know, of course, the Gardner 1868 photo of Old Man Afraid of His Horse, Red Bear and (?) Sitting Bull the Oglala, with James Bordeaux and Amos Bettelyoun, Wm G. Bullock, Seth Ward, beef contractor John Finn, and one unidentified white man.

The same photo is reproduced in William J. Bordeaux's Conquering the Mighty Sioux, p. 176, with id's suspiciously similar to what you've written: Chief Conquering Bear, James Bordeaux,Isaac Bettelyon, White Bird, Joseph Prue, Todd Randall, James Reshaw, Sitting Thigh and John Bordeaux.I

[mopar440]

Aug 18, 2015 16:22:51 GMT -5 kingsleybray said:

Think it might be a wild goose chase, Dietmar. You know, of course, the Gardner 1868 photo of Old Man Afraid of His Horse, Red Bear and (?) Sitting Bull the Oglala, with James Bordeaux and Amos Bettelyoun, Wm G. Bullock, Seth Ward, beef contractor John Finn, and one unidentified white man.

The same photo is reproduced in William J. Bordeaux's Conquering the Mighty Sioux, p. 176, with id's suspiciously similar to what you've written: Chief Conquering Bear, James Bordeaux,Isaac Bettelyon, White Bird, Joseph Prue, Todd Randall, James Reshaw, Sitting Thigh and John Bordeaux.

I am the great, great, great grandson of John Finn. Are there any other pictures of John Finn?  Where can I find additional information on John Finn.
As a side note John W Finn Congressional  Medal  of Honro recipient 12/07/1941 is the grandson of John Finn listed in your article. 

[Dietmar]

Welcome mopar440,

if Walter Camp´s identifications are correct, these are the pictures Gardner took of John Finn. Both are cropped from group photographs:





John Finn was the beef contractor who supplied Fort Laramie.

"Col. John Finn, the contractor for furnishing beef
to the military post at Cheyenne has lately built a large
cattle yard at Omaha from which he loads fat beeves
on to cars for transportation westward ; some days he
sends out one dozen cars."
Cheyenne Leader, October 10, 1867

[grahamew]

A closer view of the Arapaho/Cheyenne photo:

[kingsleybray]

thanks grahame, I've often wanted a blowup of this image. You sense the seriousness of the occasion on the men's faces, the enormity of the choices facing them in a transformed world.

[Lance]

Hello all! While I've been looking for a possible connection between Seraph Garreau (near Fort Bennett in the 1880s) and Charles "Garrou" (a.k.a. Gerue). I ran across an article on the South Dakota State Historical Society website called, "Fur Traders as Fathers". Here is the link: www.sdhspress.com/journal/south-dakota-history-3-3/fur-traders-as-fathers-the-origins-of-the-mixed-blooded-community-among-the-rosebud-sioux/vol-03-no-3-fur-traders-as-fathers.pdf

In it, Charles Garrou is tasked with spending the summer at Fort Laramine in 1868 to obtain more signatures on the treaty. Later, Edward A. Howard, agent at the Brule Agency (on Beaver Creek), has a beef with the fur traders that have married into Sioux families and wants them gone. *Spoiler alert- grandchildren of Charles still live in the area and Howard was fired about a year later.

[Lance]

Regarding pictures of Charles Guerue, PatsyLaPointe66 on Ancestry shared this, "Found this photo in Montana, The Magazine of Western History, Summer 2013. Gurnsey and Illingworth, photographers, Denver Public Library, X-31707, 18 Jun 1870"

Nov 19, 2015 11:36:57 GMT -5 Dietmar said:

Just trying to make the comparison easier...





Hard to say... if it isn´t Gueru in the Gardner picture I am stunned about how much detailed information about Gueru and his family is written down by Camp... the names of his daughter, son and the other persons in the photo, etc. I would guess that he interviewed decendants and showed them the photos, but I don´t know that exactly.

[nicolas (carlo)]

Hi Lance, welcome to the forum.
Have you tried contacting Dr. James A. Hanson at the Museum of the Fur Trade? He might help you out with the possible connection between Seraph Garreau/Charles Garrou/Charles Guerue.

[daphne]

Nov 16, 2015 11:14:24 GMT -5 Dietmar said:

Is this again the man with beard and hat we had in the last two pictures? Sitting in the center?
If he is, note Kingsley´s earlier suggestion that he was an "official", maybe agent Patrick.

Also with beard and light coloured hat sitting second from left on chair is Secretary of Commission Ashton S. H. White.

...and most intriguing to me, the man sitting far left. He appears in other pictures by Gardner as well and might be one of the interpreters present.

The man on the far left looks similitude to John Reshaw jr

[daphne]

Nov 16, 2015 11:14:24 GMT -5 Dietmar said:

Is this again the man with beard and hat we had in the last two pictures? Sitting in the center?
If he is, note Kingsley´s earlier suggestion that he was an "official", maybe agent Patrick.

Also with beard and light coloured hat sitting second from left on chair is Secretary of Commission Ashton S. H. White.

...and most intriguing to me, the man sitting far left. He appears in other pictures by Gardner as well and might be one of the interpreters present.

The man on the far left looks similitude to John Reshaw jr

[chadron]

At first seeing this photo I thought the man on the left was the man also identified as John Richard Jr in two previous photos where he is holding a rifle. Not sure if this is John Jr but it definitely appears to be the same man identified as John Richard Jr.

[rawhide]

The first time I saw this man on the left identified as John jr was in the book Portraits of the Upper Platte by John D. McDermott, 2013. While visiting Fort Casper, I asked Richard Young, supervisor at fort's museum, if he knew where McDermott got that identification but he didn't know. The book was published by the Fort Casper Museum Association.
My guess is that the identification was based on circumstantial evidence. I'm leaning toward McDermott being correct. Maybe someday there will pop up a long missed photo of 1870 delegation......

[emilylevine]

I wasn't sure where to post this question, but here seems like a good place.

There are only a handful of known images of the Cheyenne chief Little Wolf.
Two were taken by Gardner at Ft. Laramie in 1868.
This is the one you see most often.

The only place I've seen it credited to "Signal Corps Photo, Nat. Archives."
But a search of the National Archives and Records Services yields nothing.



I am hoping to publish a detail of this image and don't have time to get permissions. Hence I would prefer to cite NARA and not deal with the Newberry (even if they have it).

Thanks!
Em

[Henri]

Aug 3, 2022 17:09:10 GMT -5 emilylevine said:

I wasn't sure where to post this question, but here seems like a good place.

There are only a handful of known images of the Cheyenne chief Little Wolf.
Two were taken by Gardner at Ft. Laramie in 1868.
This is the one you see most often.

The only place I've seen it credited to "Signal Corps Photo, Nat. Archives."
But a search of the National Archives and Records Services yields nothing.

View Attachment

I am hoping to publish a detail of this image and don't have time to get permissions. Hence I would prefer to cite NARA and not deal with the Newberry (even if they have it).

Thanks!
Em

[Californian]

hello Henri and Em, on the attachment (by Henri) is this really Little Wolf ? The facial features seem different