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Post by rawhide on Nov 17, 2015 4:16:05 GMT -5
I don't know how to post pictures but I wish someone could include here the photograph the four sitting Crows and a few civilians and some soldiers. I think Gardners title was "Crow Men and Commission Staff. There is a man with moustache sitting right behind and close to Blackfoot and my guess is that he is one of those who were in Montana during the Red Clouds war. There were Mitch Boyer and John Jr who spoke Crow, Pierre Chienne (Chene) also but he was much older, Raphael Gallegos spoke also Crow but was also older. I haven't seen any mention of Louis as a translator but I guess he could speak some too but this man looks a little too old to be him.
I don't have any proof but somehow the setting in the photo points to the conclusion that the man in the middle was familiar to Blackfoot (and other Crows present) and John Jr certainly was.
As a side note, there is a group picture taken at Red Buttes by Jackson in August 1870 where You can see their hunter Raphael eating with others. I remember seeing somewhere that he joined the Hayden expedition at Fort Fetterman so could he be our Raphael Gallegos? He died at Fort Fetterman a year later, late 1871.
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Post by grahamew on Nov 17, 2015 12:34:33 GMT -5
Here it is Kingsley:  Incidentally, in my files, I have the photo posted by Dietmar at 5.03 yesterday labelled as Pete Richard and Grey Eyes - though it doesn't look like the man identified as Grey Eyes in other photos. I notice the man idenitified as Colhoff is identified as John Richard here; freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~mikestevens/2010-p/p266.htmThe Crow group:  |
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Post by Dietmar on Nov 17, 2015 13:07:07 GMT -5
These are the names of the Crow signatories on May 7, 1868:
TREATY WITH THE CROW INDIANS
CHE-RA-PEE-ISH-KA-TE, Pretty Bull
CHAT-STA-HE, WoIf Bow
AH-BE-CHE-SE, Mountain Tail
KAM-NE-BUT-SA, Black Foot
DE-SAL-ZE-CHO-SE, White Horse
CHIN-KA-SHE-ARACHE, Poor Elk
E-SA-WOOR, Shot in the Jaw
E-SH A-CHOSE, White Forehead
-- ROO-KA, Pounded Meat
DE-KA-KE-UP-SE, Bird in the Neck
ME-NA-CKE, The Swan
Attest :
GEORGE B. WILLIS, Phonographer.
JOHN D . HOWLAND.
ALEX. GARDNER.
DAVID KNOX.
CHAS. FREEMAN.
JAS C. O'CONNOR.
The names of the interpreters were not mentioned in the treaty.
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Post by rawhide on Nov 17, 2015 15:28:00 GMT -5
John Jr and Pierre Chienne were translators for the Crows at Ft Laramie only half an year earlier as you all know. I don't know if Pierre Chienne came down with the Crows or other time but John Jr certainly came and I'd presume that H.M Matthews had the foresight to arraign a translator before he left Fort Phil Kearny that spring. They had been working together along these lines all spring so that it would certainly make sense that John Jr was the interpreter, along with making himself useful in other ways also. My guess is that he should also be in the pictures where they gave Crows the treaty presents but there's some small faces! As for the looks of the John Sr, the last eyewitness I have found comes from Simonin who attended the late fall 67 council at Ft Laramie. "At the sight of this smoke-tanned man with graying hair falling abundantly about his shoulders..." (the editor and translator of "The Rocky Mountain West in 1867" identified him as Pierre Richard but surely Simonin's "Pere Richard" means "Father Richard" as Simonin wrote about John Jr as son of Pere Richard. Pere should be written with a dash above the first e but I don't know how to do it with my keyboard.  Was White Forehead the same man as White Temple, as Crows nowadays write it Itchuua Chiash? Kinda like that E-Sh A-Chose? Nobody in Gardner's pictures look like him (Iron Bull) to my eyes, though. |
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Post by kingsleybray on Nov 17, 2015 17:45:25 GMT -5
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Post by pequash on Nov 17, 2015 20:49:21 GMT -5
Hello, Don't know if this helps, from the book "From the Heart of Crow Country". It is stated that Pierre Chienne was the interpreter for Blackfoot, further he practically wrote the provisions of the treaty.
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Post by gregor on Nov 18, 2015 11:58:30 GMT -5
Dear friends, as far as I know is the following pic the only one in which Charles Gueru is definitely identified:  This is the 1870 Brulé delegation photo with agent Poole. And compared with the above posted "Gueru pix", the "1868 Gueru" is - for me - not the same man as the "1870 Gueru".  What do you think? Toksha, Gregor |
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Post by grahamew on Nov 18, 2015 12:15:23 GMT -5
Hard to tell without the moustache, but he seems younger in 1870 than he does in 68.
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Post by gregor on Nov 19, 2015 10:10:17 GMT -5
This is what I have about Charles Gueru:
Charles Gueru
(abt 1830 - ?)
Charles Gueru (aka as Guerue / Geren / Giroux / Gareau / Geureu / Guru) was apparently born about 1830. Little is known about this man, who worked as clerk, trader, and “Special United States interpreter” for different employers.
In his book “Among the Sioux of Dakota: Eighteen Months Experience as an Indian Agent” captain D. C. Pool wrote the following on Gueru:
“I first selected an interpreter, Charles E. Gueru, a Frenchman from France (a term used on the river in contradistinction to a Frenchman from Canada), who had long been associated with the Sioux, having first come among them under the auspices of the old North- Western Fur Company. He was perfectly familiar with their language and customs, and, having married a Brule Sioux woman, was looked upon as belonging to that band.”
Whether his parents immigrated from France or he himself as a youth is not known.
About 1845 Charles worked for trader E. Seth Ward (1820 -?), who had an Indian-trader’s license for different trading posts in the Upper Plate Agency Area. B.B. Mills and Antoine Janis were associates of Charles.
The next time we read about 1856 of Charles. About this time Gueru and Joseph Bissonette worked as interpreter for D.D. Mitchell at Fort John / Laramie.
In mid-June 1868 we find Gueru again in an official position at Fort Laramie. This time he is commissioned to distribute peace gifts like blankets, cloth, knives, some guns and ammunition to the Oglala, who signed the Fort Laramie treaty. There is extensive correspondence with regard to these distributions on 28th to 30th May and from June 3rd to June 24th, 1868. Gueru certified that he had distributed merchandise amounting to 8.966, 90 Dollar.
It is known that Charles was married at least two times, to
• Wasichu Win (White Women) most likely an Oglala Sioux (?) and to
• Rose Gueru / Gereu, daughter of John Richards and Mary Gardiner, a Brulé half breed woman
Gueru’s children with Wasichu Win (?) are
• Mollie Gueru, (abt 1853 - ?) later Mrs. Bridgeman
• John Gueru (1859 - ?)
• James Gueru (abt 1862 - ?)
In the 1900 Census of Meyer County, South Dakota we find John Gueru (1859 - ?) with his wife Amelia and three sons (Charlie, David, Louis, all born between 1890 and 1900). The whole family was rated Brulé Sioux. The Guerus are intermarried with the Colhoffs and Pouriers.
What else do we know. Are all facts correct? What is wrong?
Toksha, Gregor
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Post by kingsleybray on Nov 19, 2015 11:15:41 GMT -5
Thanks, Gregor, that's a good profile of Gueru.
On May 27th as Commissioners Sanborn and Harney prepared to leave Fort Laramie at the end of treaty councils there, they commissioned "Mr. Chas Gerue, Special Sioux Interpreter", to remain at Fort Laramie and "interpret for all government officers at this post . . . [until] it is firmly determined whether the Chiefs and Headmen of the Unk-pa-pas [sic, means Oyuhpes band of Oglala] and Bad Faces Bands [Red Cloud's people] execute the treaty already signed by most of the Ogallalas and Brules."
Gueru remained through the summer and early autumn. I am very interested in the information you posted above about the gifts he gave the Oglala in late May and June. Is there any more detail in your source and the "extensive correspondence" you mentioned?
Red Cloud came in to Fort Laramie to sign the treaty on November 4th. Gueru seems to have already left for the new Whetstone Agency on the Missouri river, taking a contingent of the Loafer band with him, and what remained of the beef herd issued to feed visiting Bad Faces and Oyuhpes. Gueru then was based at Whetstone Agency.
I can't shed any new light on the photo evidence. Gueru in 1868 does not look like Gueru in 1870. The extent to which the 1868 photo id's were based on later speculation is something that needs to be addressed.
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Post by Dietmar on Nov 19, 2015 11:36:57 GMT -5
Just trying to make the comparison easier...   Hard to say... if it isn´t Gueru in the Gardner picture I am stunned about how much detailed information about Gueru and his family is written down by Camp... the names of his daughter, son and the other persons in the photo, etc. I would guess that he interviewed decendants and showed them the photos, but I don´t know that exactly. |
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Post by kingsleybray on Nov 19, 2015 12:01:01 GMT -5
yes, Dietmar, I probably made that expression stronger than I meant. " . . . needs to be taken into account ..." might have been a better sense. But what if,Camp interviewed the descendants/trading community generally, they recognized the Gueru wife and children and then concluded that it was Mr Gueru with them? A white man with a beard? No, I'm not entirely happy with it myself, but .... Gueru filed an important report about treaty negotiations on July 1st, which is printed in the Commissioner of Indian Affairs Annual Report for 1868. His name is misprinted "Geren". Link here: digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/History/History-idx?type=turn&entity=History.AnnRep68.p0256&id=History.AnnRep68&isize=M&q1=Red%20Cloud |
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Post by gregor on Nov 19, 2015 12:49:51 GMT -5
Hi Dietmar (or should I say van Gogh ), hi Kingsley, ok, to begin with the pix - it is not easy. But I think this are two different men. Look at the nose and other facial features. Maybe some descendants see this here and can shed some light on this issue, or some better photographs. Kingsley, unfortunately I have only a photocopy of my "extensive correspondence". It is a business letter/list which starts as follows: "For goods issued to the Bad Face (Red Cloud's) and O'Yoke-Pa bands of Sioux and others, as per order of General J.B. Sanborn ... of the Indian Peace Commission." Then follows a long list of items issued to Lakotas. The 1st item is a saddle to Big Mouth. No other name is mentioned. The list ends with a total amount of 8.966,90 Dollar. Then follows: "I hereby certify that the above account is a just and correct account of issues made by me to the aforementioned Indians, under direction of General A.J. Slemmer - Chas. E. Gueru,special Indian interpreter, appointed by the Indian Peace Commission" "Sworn to and subscribed before me, this seventeenth day of October, A.D. 1868 - W.G. Bullock, United States Commissioner for the Territory of Dakota" "Aproved: John B. Sanborn, Late Commissioner and Disbursing Agent, Indian Peace Commission" The next document is a certificate of a "Robt. P. McKibbin, Captain Fourth Infantry, Brevet Lieutenant Colonel U.S.A." McKibbin certifies, that he empowered Charles E. Gueru to procure the items of the list from S.E. Ward for distribution and that the distribution was made and that the list of goods is "correct and just". The next document is an affidavit (April 20, 186 9) of W. G. Bullock before J. W. Hutchinson, notary public of the county of Laramie. It says, that Bullock was the agent of E.S. Ward, and that he was instructed to issue presents to Sioux and that Gueru had confirmed the correctness of the issue. (In all likelihood he was waiting for his money from the government - nothing ever changes). That's all I have - and my fingers bleed  Gregor |
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Post by gregor on Nov 19, 2015 13:32:33 GMT -5
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Post by rawhide on Nov 19, 2015 14:11:46 GMT -5
Simonin met "Guerut" nov67 and he told that he came from Havre (France) "twenty years ago" and he invited Gen.Harney and Simonin to a dogfeast to his tent. He is our Gerue as Simonin writes that he was an interpreter for the Laramie Loafers. The Rocky Mountains West in 1867, p 97, UNP 1966
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