Post by louisgarcia on Jan 29, 2009 9:54:01 GMT -5
W. Smoke: Dakota tradition here at Ft. Totten says the origin of the name Oglala is for finger flicking. 30-40 years ago it was popular with the youth to finger flick each other as they passed. owasicu wo! take it all. Holding all your fingers and thumb together you flick your wrist toward your enemy. They say the recipient would immediately go for a knife in the old days.
I'm sure you're going to have your hands full with all these question and many thanks for the information and for answering. I'm very interested in the relationship between Chief Smoke and Chief Bull Bear: when you say they were "brothers", do you mean hunka brothers or there was an actual blood kinship? (So far, the only brother of Bull Bear I heard of was One Eya, aka La Borgne). Also, was Spotted Bear, the Bad Faces itancan a nephew or a son of Chief Smoke?
Last Edit: Jan 29, 2009 10:36:50 GMT -5 by jinlian
"Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody."
Almost everyone says: that they were blood brothers.
But my uncle Adolph Bull Bear said: that they actually were cousins, they came from the same household, & they were close like brothers way before the feud in 1834 about the leadership.
There is another story about Old Smoke & Bull Bear feud, but it’s personal to say.
Yeah I know our origin of the name Oglalas sounds like childless, but you know that’s history for you.
Now on Old Smoke & Old Man Afraid of His Horses.
Man Afraid was the 1st born son of Old Smoke around the early 1800’s.
Old Smoke raised Man Afraid to be a peaceful, a wise young man, & has his Successor too.
Man Afraid reign: 1851, 1864 to 1868.
Old Chief Smoke was related to other powerful men of the Lakota Nation like Chief Lone “One” Horn, to Crazy Horse, note: he wasn’t a chief just a great warrior, to probably Chief Charging Bear, later on, known as John Grass, & Etc.
Old Smoke’s sons: No Neck & Red Feather was apart Hunkpapa Sioux.
Probably were related to Sitting Bull, note: he wasn’t a chief just a great spiritual man, & to probably other Hunkpapa chiefs, Etc.
Contact: W. Smoke
Last Edit: Jan 31, 2009 21:15:40 GMT -5 by W. Smoke
Little bit of history on the Chief Old Bull Bear’s family & people.
It was said: today the Bull Bear family is mostly Oglala, & Lakota Sioux but also from the Cheyenne, & O’ Sage Tribes from Kansas Territory.
Because after the feud with Old Smoke, Bull Bear took his division way down south to the Kansas Territory to hunt & lived for awhile. So Bull Bear & some of his people married into Southern Cheyenne, & O’ Sage Tribes.
When they traveled back to the Dakota Territory, they ran into a war party of Old Smoke’s warriors. A couple months later, Bull Bear & his division ran into Old Smoke’s Camp again.
Then it happen, Old Bull Bear got killed, so his oldest son: Bull Bear the 2nd note: this isn’t Young Bull Bear of the Old Smoke’s division. He took over as the Chief of his father’s division, the Cut off or Bear people. Until his younger brother, Little Wound got older in the 1860’s.
Note: there were two Young Bull Bears, but the older one kept the name just “Bull Bear”.
Post by kingsleybray on Feb 1, 2009 15:12:50 GMT -5
Thanks once more, Wendyll, for your information. It's fascinating that Smoke and Bull Bear were so closely related, and grew up together in the same household. It's also interesting that the feud about the leadership started in 1834. That was the year the trading post Fort Laramie was built on the North Platte River. Messengers invited the Oglalas to come to trade, and Bull Bear led 100 lodges down from the Black Hills. Did Smoke not go with this group? Maybe this was part of the original disagreement?
Also you mentioned two sisters of Smoke. Walks As She Thinks of course became the mother of Red Cloud. Who did White Cow marry?
I'm also interested in Smoke's wives - what divisions did they belong to? I take it maybe that No Neck's mother, for instance, was Hunkpapa.
Finally, I know I'm loading you up with questions, but do you know how Smoke and Lone Horn were related?
Again, many thanks for generously posting this information. It's helping to fill out the histories of several of the most important Oglala families.
"The Blue Horse family was from the Tapisleca Band, which means "split liver," and it was under the protection of Red Cloud. They lived on Mission Flat."
Has anyone further information on the affiliation between the Blue Horse family and the Spleen band? Wendyll stated that probably Blue Horse and Big Mouth were Chief Smoke's adopted sons; Blue Horse, in his letter and conversations with E. Burbank stated that he "was born the same day that Red Cloud saw light" - if he could provide such an accurate statement, that would mean that he and Red Cloud were born in the same camp and tiyospaye. So, was there any relation between the Spleen band and the Smokes/Red Clouds?
Sorry for this flurry of questions, but I like Blue Horse and would love to get more information.
"Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody."
Sorry I haven’t been on, I been busy with some stuff.
But on White Cow Woman, I heard she was stolen by an enemy tribe.
Also I heard that she was the mother of Chief Lone “One” Horn.
Anyways on Old Smoke’s wives; Looking Walker of the Teton Hunkpapa Lakota; Comes Out Slow of the Teton Oglala Lakota; Yellow Haired Woman of the Cheyenne Tribe.
There are 2 more wives of Old Smoke.
But I don’t know? I need to find their names and what is their band? I know their Lakota though. Soon I get it, I’ll let you know alright?
Old Smoke married into almost each every bands in the Lakota Nation.
I can trace the Smoke family tree back around to the 1600's, that making the Smoke family the second oldest family of the Teton Lakota Sioux, to the White Buffalo Calf Pipe keeper's line. The Calf Pipe's line can go back 19 Generations to the first chief who kept the pipe.
The Smokes is 6 and 7 Generations who come from a Great Chiefs line, and the only oldest chief family.
So if there was a monarchy of the Great Teton Lakota Sioux Nation? Man Afraid of His Horses or Smoke families would be the traditional royalty of today. So that means Chief Man Afraid or Young Chief Smoke to be sitting on the theoretical Teton Lakota throne because Old Man Smoke was sort of like the “King Chief” of not only the Hunk-pa-ti-las “Oglalas” Tribe, but all of the Great Teton Lakota Sioux Nation. “Old Smoke was the statesman or spokesman of the Lakota Nation. He should be highly recognized but he isn't!”
But the Smokes have more authority because they have the (real) original head Chief name and they almost related to everyone in the Lakota Nation!
Remember I told you that the Old Smoke’s band and Bull Bear’s band didn’t communicate from 1834-1841, only bump into each other time to time, and no this is not original disagreement!
I was thinking, would if old Chief Smoke hadn’t die in 1864 and was still alive during the 1868 Treaty? Would it be totally different today??
Wonderful photograph! The resemblance with Red Cloud it's just amazing...Wendyll said Blue Horse was probably an adopted son of Chief Smoke - I wonder which was his blood kinship with Red Cloud, after all (George Hyde said Big Mouth - Blue Horse's brother -was a "relative" of Red Cloud)
I am new to the board, and it has really helped. In regards to two other possible wives of Chief Smoke, according to my family history and supposed lineage, Chief Smoke married Rattling Iron who had a daughter "Walks with White", my Maternal great-great-great grandmother.
Any confirmation or other information would be greatly appreciated!!
Post by bogartdurkin on Apr 21, 2010 10:30:33 GMT -5
My family records say Walks With White (my great great great grandmother) was "the daughter of Smoke and one of his 4 wives, according to No Neck as told to Ed Amiotte. Thick Bread, American Horse, Charging Bear, Walks With White and Walks With Cow were all full brothers and sisters, all being children of Smoke and of his 4 wives. No Neck, Woman Dress, Spotted Bear (the elder) and Breath Wind were all half brothers of Walks With Whilte, but all being the children of Smoke and his different wives." But further in the history it seems from checking the government records at Pine Ridge (by my family's geneologist), Thick Bread's parents were listed as Bear's Foot and Ratteling Iron. Things get confusing due to the Indian custom of calling their cousins brothers.
It was very pleasure to reading the history of Your family and I'm also thankful for You shared it with us! Wopila tanka!
Please allow me some of my thoughts:
I think Man-Afraid-of-His-Horse (b.ca.1808) couldn't to be the son of Smoke. I remember, one time Kingsley or Ephriam mentioned somewhere that, this great Oglala leader said once he is a third one who wears this name.
If Bull Bear and Smoke were cousins that came from maternal side probably. Old Body Parts was a Saone and his wife would be a daughter/sister of Standing Buffalo, a Hunkpatila. According to Hardorff (The Death of Crazy Horse, p.39n), the paternal grandfather of Little Wound (the son of Bull Bear) was Stone Knife who was the leader of the Kiyuksa and too, a shamanistic leader of all Oglala. After his death, Bull Bear became the head chief of the Kiyuksas.
If the aforementined story is true, Stone Knife married the sister of Old Body Parts probably, hence the cousin-relationship between Bull Bear and Smoke.
according to people here on Rosebud, Big Mouth and Blue Horse were sons of Smoke. They were all ''hang around the forts" and died from drink. Smoke was 6'4'' and 300 lbs. when he died.
not sure if this is the right post, I am just catching up here haha but Victor told me the other day that there were two brothers,both named Red Fish. Their father was Swift Bear and they had different mothers. Lone Horn was the son of Black Bull, not Black Buffalo. Lone Horn was a brother to old man Crazy Horse.