Chief Smoke and his family

[Deleted]

From information that I've gleaned, Jules Shangrau came west with the Janis family and married Wiyela (Gabby) the daughter of Yellow Woman (Sahiyela) and Smoke (Hunkpatila) circa 1847. Julian Louis (1848-1899) was their first born son and John (1850-1926) their second born son. At some point Jules Shangrau married the younger sister of his wife, Breath Wind. Their sons were Peter (1859-1905) and William (1860-1904). Julian Louis Shangrau married Louise Janis and they had six children. John Shangrau married Mary and they had seven children. Peter Shangrau married Lucy Janis and they had five children. William Shangrau married Emma Lee and they had three children. Mary, the wife of John Shangrau died in 1891 when John was en route to Europe with Bill Cody and while in England he met and married Lillie Orr in 1892. Lillie and John had ten children. Louis and John met Cody at Fort Laramie when Cody was eleven or so and they were nine and seven. John and Lillie settled in Tuthill only a few miles from where Cody had a ranch across the state line in Nebraska. Both Louis and John witnessed the failed Powder River expedition by Crook in March, 1876 and the massacre at Wounded Knee on December 28, 1890. John narrowly escaped being killed that day even though he was working as an interpreter for Forsyth. The lives of the children of Lillie and John are documented to some extent, but documentation regarding the children of Mary and John ends at the time of the death of their mother.

[Deleted]

Just a note on the (alleged) existence of the woman named Wiyela. According to the NLD, wiyela (or winyela) meaning "female," is not a proper name for a human being. And though that may be the prevalent understanding today, I have yet to see documentation of the truth of that claim prior to the twentieth century. From what I have read, her descendants recall that she was also known as "Gabby" which, in Lakota iyapi, is an "archaic" word "iwakan" having the meaning "to be prophetic" besides the usual meaning of talkative. It is my contention that Smoke (Shota) was a very canny guy and even though the marriage of Ulala (Spotted Horse) to Tom Conroy did not work as planned, I think his strategy was sound.

[hreinn]

From the thread Big Head (Big Brain)/Hole in the Head family:

Nov 24, 2017 4:34:48 GMT -5 kingsleybray said:

Paints His Chin Red was a cousin of the first Bad Wound (c. 1757-1825), the headman of the Tasnaheca-yuta (Ground Squirrel Eaters) band.
The Kuhinyan and Tasnaheca-yuta became very closely linked by marriage in the early 1800s.
Smoke (Tasnaheca-yuta) and Lone Man (Kuhinyan; father of Red Cloud) married each other's sisters about the time the Kuhinyan came back to the Oglala hoop.

Man Afraid of His Horse -- nb the grandfather of 'Old' Man Afraid of His Horse -- was married to a sister of Crouches Running, and became an important family head within Kuhinyan.

On June1, 2011 in this thread, Wendell Smoke listed wives and children of Smoke.
The only listed Oglala wife is Comes Out Slow Woman.

Kingsley, what do your Oglala friends tell about the following:
1. Was the name of Lone Man's sister (who Smoke married) Comes Out Slow Woman ?
2. Was that Smoke's wife (sister of Lone Man) the mother of Old Man Afraid and Smoke 2 ?
3. Did Lone Man´s sister also belong to Kuhinyan tiyoshpaye (as her brother) when she married Smoke ?
3. Did Smoke, Old Man Afraid, Smoke 2 and Bad Wound belong to Hunkpatila tiyoshpaye at any time ?
They seem to have Tasnaheca Yuta and Kuhinyan tiyoshpaye origin, but not Hunkpatila tiyoshpaye.
I don't see how the above mentioned men could have belonged to Hunkpatila tiyoshpaye, as they have often been assigned to.

[kingsleybray]

hreinn, I delved a little deeper, and what I have is that Smoke (of the Tasnaheca-yuta band) and Lone Man (Kuhinyan band) married each other's sisters about the time the Kuhinyan band came back to the Oglalas in 1818 -- after twenty or so years "camping away from the circle". Smoke's sister was Walks As She Thinks.Lone Man's sister was Shell Earrings, Pankeska Owintkun. Shell Earrings was the mother of twin sons, born about 1819 or 1820, namely Big Mouth and Blue Horse. Walks As She Thinks was the mother of Red Cloud, born about 1820 or 1821. Big Mouth and his brother Blue Horse would have called Red Cloud cousin, tahansi.

I don't have direct statements on your other points. I would suggest that Wendell Smoke was using the band name Hunkpatila in a very wide sense, almost like a synonym for Oglala. In the 1700s the Hunkpatila were a very strong, numerous and important band, more so than they were in the mid-19th century.

[frenchman]

Dear Kingsley '
till your last post about the Smoke's family I had always read that the mother of Big Mouth and Blue Horse was Burnt Her Woman (from the Brûlé Tribe ) so Shell Earrings being Kuhinyan she was surely not the same woman as Burnt Her .Then it seems that Smoke had more than five wives as I had seen before (Lookink Cloud W, Comes out Slow ,Yellow Haired W., Brown Eyes W.'and Burnt Her W. ).
Moreover G.Catlin had painted a Smoke's wife called Pure Fountain (Hee Lah Dee ),who was thi woman? 

[kingsleybray]

frenchman, Catlin painted a portrait of the Ponca chief called Smoke, no relation to the Oglala.

[hreinn]

Kingsley, thanks for your detailed answers.
It will be so interesting to read your upcoming book or books.
I say books, because it seems to be so much information which your Oglala friends have, that it will be difficult to put everything into one book.
It takes talents to interweave detailed genealogical information and complex history without missing any thread.
It will be interesting to see in what manner you will be doing it, i.e. how you will set this up.
What is certain is that it takes time.

The best manner/format I have seen in my society about similar matter, is where a special book is published to support the main text.
The purpose of the additional supportive volume is to:
a) draw out various aspects from the main text (e.g. warfare or genealogical information) in special sections or chapters.
b) make further connections between various aspects
c) sometimes add more details which are difficult to have included in the main text
d) rephrase some of the information to put it in another/new light.
e) special index for names and nicknames of persons
f) special index for names of rivers, mountains, etc. in the landscape
e) put the information in the main text in a different format, i.e. in "pictures":
e.g. give detailed genealogical information in diagrams (with text to explain it)
e.g. display many maps which shows historical places and routes (and of course rich in names of the landscape, i.e. rivers, mountains, etc.)
e.g. diagrams with timelines, sometimes parallel timelines (of two connected but separated timelines of course of events)

But again, it will be interesting to see how you will tackle this.

Kind regards,
Hreinn

[grahamew]

Presumably another descendant: Millie Mary Conroy Harvey. Photographer is Miller of Gordon Nebraska

[debstar76]

Wow! Where did you find this picture! Mary Conroy Harvey is my grandfathers older sister! I've seen another of her wearing a beautiful buckskin almost completely beaded dress made by her aunt Victoria Standing Bear Conroy, married to Frank Conroy. Mary Millie Conroy parents were John and Lucy "Luta" Gerry Conroy,My Great Grandparents. Her Grandmother was Ulala Sun Gleska Win,Conroy daughter of Old Chief Smoke. Thank you for this! Deb

[grahamew]

An auction site, but I can't remember which one. It is here, though: www.cowanauctions.com/lot/cabinet-cards-and-rppcs-of-sioux-indians-in-nebraska-and-south-dakota-ca-1900s-3152399 and here: www.ebay.com/itm/Ca1906-Indio-Nativo-Americano-Sioux-identificado-adolescente-Gabinete-Tarjeta-Foto-/202223755514?_ul=DO&nma=true&si=YWSxmc5kRu4fcHEAJRKnm5mwyAE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[debstar76]

Thank you Grahamew! I will have to check that website out.

Deb Janis Cordier

[daphne]

Saved Photo

Saved Photo


[grigoryev]

I met information that Smoke was Brother Walks As She Thinks (Oglala Sioux); White Cow Woman; NN Sister of Walks as She Thinks and White Hawk. Is this true?

White Hawk was born supposedly between 1760 и 1808. Has died ±1838 (Killed by his cousin Bull Bear).

His son also took the name of a White Hawk

[Canadian Cree]

Can anyone tell me more information on White Hawk supposedly a half brother to Red Cloud. Thanks
G

[natethegreat]

Oct 15, 2017 17:34:40 GMT -5 @georg said:

From information that I've gleaned, Jules Shangrau came west with the Janis family and married Wiyela (Gabby) the daughter of Yellow Woman (Sahiyela) and Smoke (Hunkpatila) circa 1847. Julian Louis (1848-1899) was their first born son and John (1850-1926) their second born son. At some point Jules Shangrau married the younger sister of his wife, Breath Wind. Their sons were Peter (1859-1905) and William (1860-1904). Julian Louis Shangrau married Louise Janis and they had six children. John Shangrau married Mary and they had seven children. Peter Shangrau married Lucy Janis and they had five children. William Shangrau married Emma Lee and they had three children. Mary, the wife of John Shangrau died in 1891 when John was en route to Europe with Bill Cody and while in England he met and married Lillie Orr in 1892. Lillie and John had ten children. Louis and John met Cody at Fort Laramie when Cody was eleven or so and they were nine and seven. John and Lillie settled in Tuthill only a few miles from where Cody had a ranch across the state line in Nebraska. Both Louis and John witnessed the failed Powder River expedition by Crook in March, 1876 and the massacre at Wounded Knee on December 28, 1890. John narrowly escaped being killed that day even though he was working as an interpreter for Forsyth. The lives of the children of Lillie and John are documented to some extent, but documentation regarding the children of Mary and John ends at the time of the death of their mother.

John was a busy man.