There is no reference as far as I know to who's in the picture - and I like the idea it could be Man Afraid, but it was taken in 1859 by Bierstadt on the Lander expedition along with the other photos you can see. If you look at the second painting in the first post, you can see another example of a man wearing what appears to be a metal conch from his hairline in the centre of his forehead and another around his neck; in fact, I wonder if this isn't based on the man in the photo - I know they're not dressed the same but who's to know if Bierstadt didn't ask him to take off his shirt etc. It's a pity this is the best resolution that can be found on the internet. I would assume a better one exists, like the photo of the Oglala man among the tipis posted on page 2. Looking closely at the enlargement pf this photo posted on page 1, I'd be tempted to say that the man with the disc on his forehead is too young to be Smoke. What do we know of Shangreau's appearance? Looking at the enlargement again, I see an older man with his hair in braids. Maybe I've been looking at the photo too long!
Last Edit: Sept 18, 2018 12:18:04 GMT -5 by grahamew
But there are photographs of the prisoners of war at the end of the Slim Buttes triumph. Think on that.
Not sure the relevance of this to the Bierstadt discussion, nor the point about Catherine Price's book. Sorry, but I've always seen this photo referenced as a Bierstadt. I'm not looking for an argument; I have no wish to look for reasons why this isn't what you say it is; this board doesn't work that way.
Incidentally, if Shangrau's as young as you think he is, that may be him with the Indian guide further up the thread... Who knows?
If you do not like how I post here I will stop posting all together. Will that suit you? Or you could block me. Either way, I take the time, and then get guff for my postings is not acceptable to me. You may not see the relevance of my remarks but others might. Or are you the only one that counts here?
No one's giving you 'guff' for your postings; I took the time to explain carefully - more than once. However, please enlighten me how the remarks about Morrow's photo of the Lakotas captured after Slim Buttes and the reference to Catherine Price's book are relevant here.
Last Edit: Aug 13, 2018 2:11:25 GMT -5 by grahamew
In terms of the timing of these photos - and according to Pioneer Photographers from the Mississippi to the Continental Divide by Peter E. Palmquist, Thomas R. Kailbourn p.109 - this is the best I can do: Bierstadt took some photographs of Dog Belly's Oglala on May 30 1859 at or near Fort Kearny, Nebraska Territory. In early June, he photographed some tipis near the Blue Water; he took more Indian photos (of Cheyenne and Lakota) at Fort Laramie and of Shoshones at Devil's Gate. By July 5 he was at Green River Wyoming. On July 3, there was a big celebration with Washakie's Shoshones (I wonder if he took the earliest Washakie photo...) on Grass Springs, east of Green River. -
Further to what I wrote above, the painting of the trapper and the Indian guide would appear to depict Lander and Washakie. If I recall correctly, Washakie was kitted out with a uniform by Lander and presumably that's why he's painted wearing blue trousers. That's surely the first likeness of Washakie...? He would have been eother in his mid-fifites or 304, depending on which birth date you believe
Lander is also believed to be the man with the bucket with Dog Belly's Oglala in the etching below:
Last Edit: Aug 14, 2018 6:32:20 GMT -5 by grahamew
Post by kingsleybray on Aug 14, 2018 7:52:51 GMT -5
so grahamew has tightened our timeline down to one month -- all the Bierstadt photographs of Oglalas seem to have been taken in the month of June, 1859.
That year the Northern Oglala Sun Dance was held on Tongue river in southern Montana, attended by (at least) the Bad Face, Hunkpatila, and Oyuhpe bands. Sun Dance was usually late June-July, so time constraints and the spatial distribution of the photographs (taken from Ft Kearney to Ft Laramie) suggests the likelihood that most of the Oglala subjects were Southern Oglalas, whose hunting range was south of the Platte river, and/or members of the Wagluhe (Loafer) band which lived year round in the greater Ft Laramie vicinity. Since Smoke was the principal leader of the Wagluhe that places him in the catchment area. And one of his sons, or 'sons' in the Lakota classificatory sense, Big Mouth, was painted by Bierstadt.
Dr J C R Clark vaccinated almost 600 Indians against smallpox along the Platte river in summer 1859. He and Bierstadt did not travel together, looks like several weeks apart, but Clark noted the whereabouts of the Indians he vaccinated. The Oglalas he treated were located as follows. Figures in parentheses () indicate the number of people vaccinated at each camp location:
May 11 "On the Little Blue" (20) May 16 "Ash Hollow Camp" (22) May 24 "At Fort Laramie" (72) May 31 "At Fort Laramie" (60) June 4 [also Fort Laramie?] (18) June 17 "Laramie Peake" (12) June 20 "Forks Laramie River" (22) June 21 "Horse Shoe Creek" (20) June 25 Oglala and Brule "Bissonettes Trading Post" (19) August 10 "The Agency half breeds" (15)
The Agency was located at the mouth of Deer Creek on the North Platte, modern Glenrock, WYO. The Bissonette trading post was right next door. Several more "Agency half breeds", namely 56 Cheyennes and 119 Arapahoes, were vaccinated at Deer Creek later in August. There's a good chance that elements of the Shangreau family were around the agency -- awaiting the arrival (in July) of Indian Agent T S Twiss and the annuity goods.
This gives some idea of the distribution of Oglala groups in May-June. As said they will be mainly Southern Oglala and Wagluhe band. At the moment this is all I can add to tighten the id of the subjects in the Bierstadt photo's.
By the way, I shall have to check the references but I believe that Jules Shangreau was killed by Big Mouth on the Cache la Poudre river in Colorado a few years after this. Or to be scrupulously fair, Big Mouth was accused of the killing.
Dog Belly (or Wolf Belly) seems to be a quite familiar figure in the area around the Platte in 1860.
On May, 9th, 1860 The Weekly North Iowa Times published a letter (dated May 3rd, 1860) from an unnamed author who was at gold diggings in the Rocky Mountains. He writes:
“After leaving O’Fallon’s Bluffs where my last was dated, we travelled to the South crossing the Platte, where we found the Old Chief Dog Belly who enquired particularly after the big pipe we had with us last year, being good evidence I think that he remembers good eating and smoking.”
The Huntsman's Echo of Buffalo, Nebraska, mentioned Dog Belly and his band on September 6, 1860, when reporting various hostile incidents between Lakotas and settlers:
“Lieut. Robinson also furnished an item of news, the import of which, was, that a Mrs. Iler, who, with her husband was on the way to “The Peak”, was shot through with an arrow, by an Indian belonging to “Dog belly’s” party, on the 19th inst. It occurred about twenty miles above O’Fallon’s bluffs, where she is lying now in a critical condition.”
Without a maker's mark none of this is proof as to the date or origin of the photograph in question. This is all conjecture and assumption. Again, look at the individuals in it and see if you can put a names to each of them. As I see it, the photograph itself is all the real evidence of the nature of its existence. I have put names to all of them but you do not "like" my ideas. I am not trying to convince any of you that my selection is correct, but you seem to be trying very hard to convince me that I am wrong. Why is that?
Oh, and I had no idea there was a rule against raising multiple topics in a thread. Are all these rules posted somewhere? It seems to me by your reactions you find some of these issues threatening. If that is not so, why the rush to silence me? I think we would all be better off if you took away my log-in because I am like a dog with a bone. By the way, did any of you realize that Price had omitted all mention of Crook's punitive Powder River Expedition? Why do you think that was? I think it was a white-wash that has continued to this very day. The army major who wrote his thesis about the campaign had his document removed.
Though not relevant to our immediate topic, here are some Indian heads painted by Bierstadt that have the look of being painted in the field:
Anyone have more i formation about them?
Not quite sure what the white men are doing here, but the small breastplate suggests a somewhat early origin for this - maybe it's another 1859 sketch - or something he's taken from an earlier photo or sketch.
The painting below - and I'm assuming the other two like it, is dated 1888 in the Autry Museum catalogue - which would certainly make sense, because the man has the look of a Wild West Show Indian with the longer breastplate:
Here are two images that may also be from this later period:
Cowboy and Indian Study
Sadly, this is the only size I can find; same with this:
Head of an Indian
Any more info on these or more pictures or pictures at a better resolution would be most welcome...
Last Edit: Sept 18, 2018 12:22:20 GMT -5 by grahamew