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Post by hreinn on Jan 24, 2015 6:13:41 GMT -5
Regarding Kuinyan, it could perhaps be good to remember to consider what Mekeel noted (page 48) after an interview with Left Heron. For example: "The Kunhinyan were once Cheyenne." More from page 48 in Mekeel's field notes about Kuinyan: "Left Heron's mother was an Oglala and of the Kunhinyan." "The Kunhinyan later became the Gopher Band (Tacnaitca). The Kunhinyan were once Cheyenne. At the mouth of the Cheyenne River the people with the Sacred Arrow and with the Sacred Pipe, met and had a ceremony for everlasting peace. They also intermarried. They later met at the Niobrara River. There was small pox about the time of this first meeting, and in the winter count it was called "The year the Horses Charged on the Camp." I don't remember the exact date this would be according to his winter count, but it was some where around 1785." The Ku-inyan band name, explained as gives the rock, is said to refer to pipestone. . . . This Kuinyan band name story is perhaps referring to the incident which Left Heron mentioned to Mekeel. That is the incident when Cheyenne and Lakota made peace at the mouth of Cheyenne River in 1700s. Where either group could have brought a pipestone as a gift to the other group, as a symbol of good faith, good intention and their willingness to make a peace. Where it would more likely be the Lakotas who brought the pipestone rock. Perhaps more specifically Itazipcho (Sans Arc) ? Because they were the keepers of the Sacred Pipe. Perhaps after having traded the pipestone from the Yankton Dakotas, because they occupied the area where the red pipestone mine was. Perhaps there was a Yankton Dakota thread in the group which made the original peace with the Cheyennes ? Based on Nicollet's 1839 list of Yankton Dakota band names, where some of the band names existed also among the Lakotas.
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Post by grigoryev on Jan 28, 2015 5:03:19 GMT -5
Hello. Question about tiyospaye Paint His Chin Red. After Paint His Chin Red death in 1838 at the hands of Skidi-Pawnee, mentioned his nephew Spotted Horse. Also, with this group of related families Little Dog-Big Brain-No Flash. It's all his nephews, or among these families have his sons?
Best regards, Grigoryev
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Post by grigoryev on Jan 28, 2015 5:58:37 GMT -5
About Bad Talkers Kingsley wrote: "Thus by c. 1804 - remember our baseline year! - we see three main extended families within True Oglala:
(a) Sitting Bear headman: Bad Talkers, also Mato Oyate (b) Bad Wound headman: Tashnahecha (c) Standing Bull headman"
Grant Bull said Mekeel that Hokayuta split off from Tacnaitca and divided between Ite Sica and Iya sica. According to new data turns out that Iya Sica and Mato Oyate together with Sitting Bear and his tiyoshpaye joined Bull Bear's people at Ft Laramie in 1835. Sitting Bear remained with them til 1859, then went back north. A Iya Sica remain with Southern oglalami (Kiyaksa)? The distribution does not reflect the group Iya Sica.
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Post by kingsleybray on Jan 28, 2015 6:48:27 GMT -5
In 1835 the True Oglala merged their camp organization with the Kiyuksa, forming one people, then spearheading the Oglala advance southward onto the central plains. The Hunkpatila and Oyuhpe bands tended to focus in the north, between the Black Hills and the North Platte. A few True Oglala sub-groups do seem to have maintained northern links. Maybe they didn't get on with Bull Bear. Bad Wound was in the north, a war leader in the Hunkpatila organization for instance, until 1845. His 'brother' Black Rock remained with the Hunkpatila, his small group earning the nickname Sore-Backs from an old pony Black Rock's sons learned to ride on. Yellow Thunder seems to have remained in the north throughout - I suspect his Refuse to Move Camp sub-band was named after its disinclination to go south. The Bad Faces seem a special case - a True Oglala-derived group that had merged into the Kiyuksa through marriage etc. well before 1835. After their inmarried headman Smoke quarrelled repeatedly with Bull Bear (a very close relative), climaxing in the latter's death in 1841, they moved north to merge into the Hunkpatila organization.
From 1845 to 1851 all True Oglalas except Yellow Thunder and Black Rock's few lodges seem to be in the south. Then in 1851 the Badger Eaters sub-band shifted their affiliation, aligning with Smoke's Bad Faces and the larger Hunkpatila. I suggest that problems between headman No Water with his son Black Twin and No Water's 'brother' Bad Wound - the rising star in the Southern Oglala leadership - must lie behind the move.
When Sitting Bear went and joined the Northern Oglalas, or Smoke People (Shota oyate) in 1858 or 1859, his tiyospaye the Bad Speakers came with him. That was one of the original component groups of the True Oglala. Other elements of the True Oglala remained with the Southern Oglalas. These were: the Tashnahecha-yuta, focussed round Bad Wound; the Iwayusota, focussed round Walks Underground; and some elements of Badger Eaters, who must have aligned with the two leaders just named. Black Warbonnet and Standing Cloud were other headmen connected to this True Oglala element within the Southern Oglala. They seem to have been intermarrying extensively with the Kuhinyan (Whistler and Big Brain's sub-bands) throughout this mid-19th c. frame. Another generation of the old life and these units would have been merged, I suspect, distinction lost except in family memories. I'm as guilty as the next man in this, but we must get away from seeing these units as boxes - they were on one level social organisms whose function was to co-ordinate marriages and to handle the concentration and redistribution of wealth.
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Post by Dietmar on Jan 28, 2015 9:01:28 GMT -5
Sorry, I know I´m off the topic... but when I read your last post I was reminded that three of the Southern Oglalas you mentioned (Walks Underground, Black Warbonnet & Standing Cloud) were photographed by Ridgway Glover in 1866. Too bad Glover´s picture plates are lost or haven´t been found yet.
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Post by kingsleybray on Jan 30, 2015 5:53:50 GMT -5
been making a few revisions/edits to the posting of January 20th. I removed a reference to the Iwayusota band which proved erroneous - my faulty interpretation. I do have a detailed knowledge of that band's origin now, and its earlier name/identity. The story fits a little later in the sequence. From continuing conversations at Pine Ridge, I now know that the Hunkpatila band leadership passed directly from Buffalo Shield to his son Yellow Eagle I. My friend knows this roughly belongs about the middle of the 18th century. From other information I believe "Buffalo Shield's time" (to quote He Dog again) overlaps with the timeframe 1700-25. Yellow Eagle must have been born about the 1680's, and would have been the main headman within Hunkpatila around 1725-50. During this frame an offshoot band from the Hunkpatila emerged, known at first as Sage's camp after its chief, and crystalising as the Oyuhpe band. An important time bracket in Oglala history.
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dado
New Member
Posts: 34
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Post by dado on Feb 7, 2015 1:52:27 GMT -5
We refer to interpretations of the threads "Oglala band structure" and "Shiyo" to learn more about the origin of the Hunkpapa.
Thesis 1: A Shiyo-cluster (proto-Hunkpapa, Black Moon family) was first part of the Oyuhpe. Later they formed with elements of the Saone (Hohwozhu) the Hunkpapa tribel circle. This is supported by the statement that the Hunkpapa were originally Oglala.
Thesis. 2 A Shiyo-cluster (proto-Hunkpapa, Black Moon family) made with elements of the Saone (Hohwozhu) the Hunkpapa tribel circle. Oyuhpe came later. This is suggested that the oldest "Hunkpapa winter counts" begins around 1755.
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Post by grigoryev on Apr 19, 2015 3:05:03 GMT -5
Hello. At the moment I read Donald Koller "Oglala Field Note". In an interview with The Ghost, who has a different name walexa (bag) has the following information: "I lived in No Braid's camp, called wakantiospaye (holy camp)... I am a wazazi, but after I married No Braid's sister I went to live with his bunch... I was born at old Ft. Laramie. My father was named Shedding Horse or Black Blanket. My mother's name was Iron Beaver. I was in the wazazi band; that was my father's band... I used to live in my father's tipi. With us in the wazazi were: Big Tit - FF (own tipi) Feather Necklace - B (married and own tipi) Oscar Whetstone - cousin Black Bull - MB I had another MB, White Horse, in the camp of Coverd Head (pamahe), which was just a small camp. ...."
What's the name of the camp - Cover Head. If his mother was from tiyospaye Wakan, which were Oyuhpe, then maybe it's also one of the camps Oyuhpe? Can anyone provide information on the subject.
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Post by kingsleybray on Apr 19, 2015 3:50:13 GMT -5
Look on p. 1 and 2 of the Collier Field Notes, interview with Eagle Elk. There is a man called Covers His Head listed as a family head in Charging Hawk's camp of Oyuhpe, c. 1860. He is describes as WBS - Wife's Brother's Son - of the chief Charging Hawk. Perhaps this is the person Ghost is referring to.
Ghost married into Wakan - he married No Braid's sister, as you quote. No Braid was of the Wakan.
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Post by grigoryev on Apr 20, 2015 14:50:03 GMT -5
hello In the basic distribution of 1800-1825 have respected Kingsley following tiyospaye Iwayusota, Used Up by Begging (leads to Walks Underground, Black Bear families). The distribution of 1835 is already tiyospaye not specified. Though they Walks Underground, Black Bear lived a little later. This means that in the period around 1835 is tiyospaye merged with several other tiyospaye True Oglala during displacement to the south? Can this association and headed Fast Whirlwind? In 1846 the distribution of this tiyospaye again shown as part of the camp Bad Wound. What else is known about this tiyospaye and Walks Underground and the Black Bear families.
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Post by grigoryev on Apr 22, 2015 15:35:46 GMT -5
hello I have the following question. As part Hunkpatila mentioned "Red Lodge band: Yellow Eagle family." Hide mentions Yellow Eagle in 1850 as the leader of the group of Red Lodge. Someone has information on the group and the family of the Yellow Eagle? thanks in advance
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Post by kingsleybray on Apr 23, 2015 15:28:54 GMT -5
There was a long line of Yellow Eagles who were all identified with the Hunkpatila band, according to my Oglala friends. The first was probably born in the decade 1700-10. He was the son of the Hunkpatila chief Buffalo Shield (approximate dates 1675-1750). Buffalo Shield was also recalled by He Dog in his 1931 interview with Mari Sandoz: "Before we crossed the Missouri we hunted that far for buffalo. (In Buffalo Shield's time.)"
I knew that there was a persistent 'brother' relationship between the Yellow Eagle line and the Man Afraid of His Horse dynasty. Fortunately my friend had been buddies with Carlos Yellow Eagle (killed in Vietnam) who said according to family tradition that the mother of the first Yellow Eagle was a sister to the mother of the contemporary Afraid of Horse (or Afraid of Dog in that timeframe). In Lakota kinship terms that meant the two boys grew up as 'brothers.' It was a genuine close affinity, and when they in turn married (should be around 1730 ballpark) they married another pair of 'sisters' - or at least women from the same family. In this way the relationship continued down the generations.
There was a line of descendants of the first Yellow Eagle, with that name being passed down in one of the leading families of the Hunkpatila band. Nicollet in 1839 is the first white source to mention the dynasty. He is listed in Culbertson's 1850 table of Lakota leaders -- the source for the Red Lodge band identity. A Yellow Eagle signed the 1868 Treaty at Ft Laramie. In 1870 he was identified as a brother to Old Man Afraid of His Horse and was killed in a riding accident. His son succeeded him, a war leader with a close affinity to Crazy Horse. I confess to not knowing what happened to the family btw this man and the Carlos Yellow Eagle I mentioned.
I wasn't able to find anything about the band name Red Lodge.
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Post by grigoryev on Apr 28, 2015 16:05:06 GMT -5
hello Once again leafed through "Contributions to the Ethnography and Philology of the Indian Tribes of the Missouri Valley" In the "Names of Dakota bands, with their principal chiefs" are interested in some of the data. For example, in a group Payabya, chief named Mato Wakuya, but not Affraid his Horse. About Mato Wakuya found only that he signed "AGREEMENT WITH THE SIOUX OF VARIOUS TRIBES, 1882-83."
The next question for the group pa-ha-hi'-a. Which is why it is translated as "Those who camp at the end" - Hunkpapa, but the Hunkpapa are listed below with a note - translation is not known. Their leader named Whirlwind wa-min'-i-mi-du'-za. This meant the famous Fast Whirlwind? Or someone else. What is this band?
Thank you very much
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Post by kingsleybray on Apr 28, 2015 16:55:34 GMT -5
one of the frustrating things about the table of "Names of Dakota bands, with their principal chiefs" is that it doesn't break the list down by tribal division. No list of Oglala, Hunkpapa etc. -- just a long list of bands with their chiefs added.
To clarify, I read it as follows:
Sans Arc, two bands Miniconjou, six bands Two Kettle, one band Oglala, four bands Brule, six bands Hunkpapa, five bands Sihasapa, three bands.
So the very last band listed is "Those who camp at the end, pa-a'-bi-a", chief "The man who runs the bear, ma-to'-wa-ku'-a". And it belongs with the Sihasapa cluster.
Another band with the same name, Payabya, spelled "Those who camp at the end, pa-ha-hi'-a" is listed with the Oglala cluster of bands, chief "Whirlwind, wa-min'-i-mi-du'-za". Fully that's Fast Whirlwind -- the same chief met by Parkman in 1846, etc. So yes this is the Oglala Payabya band.
Is there a connection btw the two Payabya bands? Short answer, I don't know. One time I would have ruled it out - this is a band name relating to a position in the camp circle, so in theory I can see it recurring from tribal division to tribal division. I think the connotation is that the band in question - under another name - probably occupied the chief place in the tribal circle (opposite the entrance) but then was reallocated to the second most prestigious position, at the horn or entrance. In some era of political change. The Payabya band was always associated with the Afraid of His Horse family -- but they were so very prestigious they attracted prominent adherents from other bands -- hence Fast Whirlwind's presence in the c. 1857-58 listing prepared by Hayden.
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Post by grigoryev on Apr 29, 2015 17:11:53 GMT -5
Hello Dear Kingsley In the previous post. You have led the groups belonging to oglalam: [OGLALA BANDS] pa-ha-hi'-a. Those who camp at the end, wa-min'-i-mi-du'-za, Whirlwind. min-i-sha', Red water (an Oglala band), wam'-bi-li-shi'-a-na. The Eagle that sails. pe-hi'-pte-ci-la, Short hair band, ho-po'-ma-za, Iron Arm. og-la'-la (meaning not known), ta-shunk'-a-wit'-ku. Foolish Horse. Read more: amertribes.proboards.com/thread/2252/haydens-list-teton-bands-chiefs#ixzz3YjYZ7CIMOf these groups, known Payabya and Oglala (True). But for some reason no Kiyaksa / Kuhinyan. Mini-sha begin to go to the Sans Arc. Not listed Oyukpe, Hunkpatilla. But why is there pe-hi'-pte-ci-la, Short hair bands headed ho-po'-ma-za, Iron Arm. Is there any information on this leader?
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