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Post by kingsleybray on Apr 30, 2015 9:15:20 GMT -5
Yes, I agree, grigoryev, some mysteries remain! However I suggest that part of the answer may be that smaller bands nested within larger ones. My guess would be that Kiyuksa is lumped in with Red Water. Hunkpatila seems to be lumped in with Oglala proper, since the chief of the latter is given as Crazy Horse, Tashunke Witko. That should be Worm, the father of the famous Crazy Horse. (I'm impressed by how several of the named 'chiefs' appear to be holy men in this Hayden list.)
The name translated as Iron Arm is better understood as Iron Wing. The headman Rocky Bear (born c. 1836) is said to have been the son of a man named Iron Wing. Again my guess would be that this Short Hair band may be a short-lived nickname for the Oyuhpe. But I'm not claiming 100% certainty on that!
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Post by grigoryev on Feb 5, 2016 14:47:12 GMT -5
Hello There is a question about Oglala Roster of 1883. I remind its composition. Big-Road and Band 1. Big-road. 2. Bear-looking-behind. 3. Brings-back-plenty. 4. White buffalo. 5. The-real-hawk. 6. Shield-boy. 7. The-bear-stops. 8. Wears-the-feather. 9. Dog-eagle. 10. Red-horn-bull. Low-Dog and Band 11. Low-dog. 12. Charging-hawk. 13. White-tail. 14. Blue-cloud (woman). 15. Shield. 16. Little-eagle. 17. Spotted-skunk. 18. White-bear. 19. White-hair. 20. His-fight. 21. Center-feather. 22. Kills-Crows (Indians). The-Bear-Spares-Him and Band 23. The-bear-spares-him. 24. White-plume. 25. Fears-nothing. 26. Red-crow. 27. The-last-bear. 28. Bird-man. 29. Horse-with-horns. 30. Fast-elk. 31. Chief-boy. 32. Spotted-elk. 33. Carries-the-badger. 34. Red-earth-woman. 35. Eagle-clothing. Has-a-War-Club and Band 36. Has-a-war-club. 37. Little-buffalo. 38. Has-a-point (weapon). 39. Returning-scout. 40. Little-killer. 41. Whistler. 42. Tongue. 43. Black-elk. 44. Lone-Woman. 45. Deaf-woman. Long-Dog and Band 46. Long-dog. 47. Iron-hawk. 48. Pretty-weasel. 49. Short-buffalo. 50. Bull-with-bad-heart. 51. Four crows. 52. Tall-white-man. 53. Eagle-hawk. 54. Lone-man. 55. Causes-trouble-ahead. 56. Makes-dirt ("foul"). 57. Black-road. 58. Shot-close. Iron-Crow and Band 59. Iron-crow. 60. Running-horse. 61. Owns-an-animal-with horns. 62. Blue-cloud-man. 63. Fingers. 64. Sacred-teeth. 65. Searching-cloud. 66. Female-elk-boy. 67. Little-owl. 68. Pretty-horse. 69. Running-eagle. 70. Makes-enemy. 71. Prairie-chicken. 72. Red-flute-woman. Little-Hawk and Band 73. Little-hawk. 74. Standing-buffalo. 75. Standing-bear. 76. Iron-white man. 77. Bear whirlwind. 78. Sacred crow. 79. Blue-hawk. 80. Hard-to-kill. 81. Iron-boy. 82. Painted-rock. 83. Yellow-wolf. 84. Made-an enemy. It lists only group Oyukpe ? Although the list includes a group of Little-hawk, which refers to Hunkpatilam . Dear Kingsley and other participants of the forum , do not help to identify the names of the groups ? Thanks
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Post by kingsleybray on Feb 5, 2016 17:33:07 GMT -5
How I see it: .........
Big-Road and Band [Oyuhpe]
1. Big-road. 2. Bear-looking-behind. 3. Brings-back-plenty. 4. White buffalo. 5. The-real-hawk. 6. Shield-boy. 7. The-bear-stops. 8. Wears-the-feather. 9. Dog-eagle. 10. Red-horn-bull.
Low-Dog and Band [Oyuhpe and assorted – e.g. some Hoka-yuta?]
11. Low-dog. 12. Charging-hawk. 13. White-tail. 14. Blue-cloud (woman). 15. Shield. 16. Little-eagle. 17. Spotted-skunk. 18. White-bear. 19. White-hair. 20. His-fight. 21. Center-feather. 22. Kills-Crows (Indians). The-Bear-Spares-Him and Band 23. The-bear-spares-him. 24. White-plume. 25. Fears-nothing. 26. Red-crow. 27. The-last-bear. 28. Bird-man. 29. Horse-with-horns. 30. Fast-elk. 31. Chief-boy. 32. Spotted-elk. 33. Carries-the-badger. 34. Red-earth-woman. 35. Eagle-clothing. Has-a-War-Club and Band 36. Has-a-war-club. 37. Little-buffalo. 38. Has-a-point (weapon). 39. Returning-scout. 40. Little-killer. 41. Whistler. 42. Tongue. 43. Black-elk. 44. Lone-Woman. 45. Deaf-woman.
Long-Dog and Band [correctly He Dog: Sore Backs band]
46. Long-dog. 47. Iron-hawk. 48. Pretty-weasel. 49. Short-buffalo. 50. Bull-with-bad-heart. 51. Four crows. 52. Tall-white-man. 53. Eagle-hawk. 54. Lone-man. 55. Causes-trouble-ahead. 56. Makes-dirt ("foul"). 57. Black-road. 58. Shot-close.
Iron-Crow and Band [mix of Hunkpatila and Oyuhpe?]
59. Iron-crow. 60. Running-horse. 61. Owns-an-animal-with horns. 62. Blue-cloud-man. 63. Fingers. 64. Sacred-teeth. 65. Searching-cloud. 66. Female-elk-boy. 67. Little-owl. 68. Pretty-horse. 69. Running-eagle. 70. Makes-enemy. 71. Prairie-chicken. 72. Red-flute-woman.
Little-Hawk and Band [Hunkpatila]
73. Little-hawk. 74. Standing-buffalo. 75. Standing-bear. 76. Iron-white man. 77. Bear whirlwind. 78. Sacred crow. 79. Blue-hawk. 80. Hard-to-kill. 81. Iron-boy. 82. Painted-rock. 83. Yellow-wolf. 84. Made-an enemy.
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Post by grigoryev on Feb 7, 2016 9:24:22 GMT -5
Hello In view of your answer , I think it will be something like
Big-Road and Band [True Oyuhpe] 1. Big-road. 2. Bear-looking-behind. 3. Brings-back-plenty. 4. White buffalo. 5. The-real-hawk. 6. Shield-boy. 7. The-bear-stops. 8. Wears-the-feather. 9. Dog-eagle. 10. Red-horn-bull.
Low-Dog and Band [True Oyuhpe or Susu-ikitchu???]
11. Low-dog. 12. Charging-hawk. 13. White-tail. 14. Blue-cloud (woman). 15. Shield. 16. Little-eagle. 17. Spotted-skunk. 18. White-bear. 19. White-hair. 20. His-fight. 21. Center-feather. 22. Kills-Crows (Indians).
The-Bear-Spares-Him and Band [True Oyuhpe???] 23. The-bear-spares-him. 24. White-plume. 25. Fears-nothing. 26. Red-crow. 27. The-last-bear. 28. Bird-man. 29. Horse-with-horns. 30. Fast-elk. 31. Chief-boy. 32. Spotted-elk. 33. Carries-the-badger. 34. Red-earth-woman. 35. Eagle-clothing.
Has-a-War-Club and Band [Hunkpatilla???] 36. Has-a-war-club. 37. Little-buffalo. 38. Has-a-point (weapon). 39. Returning-scout. 40. Little-killer. 41. Whistler. 42. Tongue. 43. Black-elk. 44. Lone-Woman. 45. Deaf-woman.
Long-Dog and Band [correctly He Dog: Sore Backs band]
46. Long-dog. 47. Iron-hawk. 48. Pretty-weasel. 49. Short-buffalo. 50. Bull-with-bad-heart. 51. Four crows. 52. Tall-white-man. 53. Eagle-hawk. 54. Lone-man. 55. Causes-trouble-ahead. 56. Makes-dirt ("foul"). 57. Black-road. 58. Shot-close.
Iron-Crow and Band [mix of Hunkpatila and Oyuhpe?]
59. Iron-crow. 60. Running-horse. 61. Owns-an-animal-with horns. 62. Blue-cloud-man. 63. Fingers. 64. Sacred-teeth. 65. Searching-cloud. 66. Female-elk-boy. 67. Little-owl. 68. Pretty-horse. 69. Running-eagle. 70. Makes-enemy. 71. Prairie-chicken. 72. Red-flute-woman.
Little-Hawk and Band [Hunkpatila, Night Cloud- Mahpia Hanhepi]
73. Little-hawk. 74. Standing-buffalo. 75. Standing-bear. 76. Iron-white man. 77. Bear whirlwind. 78. Sacred crow. 79. Blue-hawk. 80. Hard-to-kill. 81. Iron-boy. 82. Painted-rock. 83. Yellow-wolf. 84. Made-an enemy.
Or I'm wrong?
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Post by grigoryev on Feb 7, 2016 10:50:03 GMT -5
Red-Cloud’s Census by G.Mallery Graphic census , plates LIX - LXXIX, it was prepared under the leadership of Red Cloud , Dakota agency leader in Pine Ridge, Dakota Territory, about two years ago . These people were supporters of Red Cloud , but did not represent all the Indians of this agency . For some reason the agent refused to recognize this leader the head of the agency and the Indians called another official leader. Red Cloud Indians showed his loyalty by signing on seven sheets of plain manila paper , which had been sent to Washington
"Red-Cloud's" band [more other chiefs] 1. Chief Red-Cloud 2. Top-Man 3. Slow-Bear 4. He-Dog 5. Little Chief 6. Red-Shirt 7. White-Hawk 8. Cloud-Shield 9. Good-Weasel 10. Afraid-Eagle
"Red-Cloud's" band [Ite Sica?] 11. Bear-Brains 12. War-Bonnet 13. Little-Soldier 14. Little-Dog 15. Call-for 16. Short-Bull 17. White-Bird 18. Painted-Face 19. Iron-Beaver 20. Big-Leggings 21. Only-Man 22. Mad-Hearted-Bull 23. Running-Eagle 24. Ring-Cloud 25. White-Bird 26. Arapaho
"Red-Cloud's" band [Ite Sica?] 27. Steals-Horses 28. Kills-by-the-Camp 29. Iron-Hawk 30. Knock-a-Hole-in-the-Head 31. Runs-around 32. Kills-in-tight-place 33. Scratch-the-Belly 34. Singer 35. Walking-Bull-Track 36. War-Eagle 37. Tree-in-the-Face 38. Kills-the-Enemy-at-Night 39. Wears-the-Bonnet 40. War-Bonnet 41. Shot-in-front-the-Lodge 42. Kills-in-Lodge 43. Kills-at-Night 44. Tall-White-Man 45. Strike-First 46. Smoking-Bear
"Red-Cloud's" band [Ite Sica? more other band - Payabya, Wagluhke] 47. Hump 48. Shot-Close 49. Blue-Horse 50. Red-Elk 51. Only-Man 52. Bear-comes-out 53. Poor-Elk 54. Blue-Handle 55. Bad-Yellow-Hair 56. Runs-by-the-Enemy 57. Torn-Belly 58. Roman-Nose 59. Old-Cloud 60. High-Cloud 61. Bear-Looks-Back
"Red-Cloud's" band [Ite Sica?] 62. Shield-Bear 63. Sees-the-Enemy 64. Biting-Bear 65. Cut-Through 66. Red-Owl 67. Good-Bird 68. Red-Fly 69. Kills-Enemy-at-Night 70. Flat-Iron 71. White-Horse 72. Cheyenne-Butcher 73. Red-Eagle 74. Kills-Back 75. Red-Bear
"Red-Cloud's" band [Ite Sica?] 76. Poor-Bear 77. Runs-off-the-Horse 78. Bald-Eagle 79. Shot-at 80. Little-Ring 81. Runs-off-the-Horses 82. Hard-Ground 83. Shot-at-his-Horse 84. Red-Deer 85. Yellow-Fox 86. Feather-on-his-head 87. Little-Bear 88. Spotted-Horse 89. Takes-the-Gun 90. Spotted-Face 91. Got-there-first 92. Leaves 93. Big-Voice 94. Poor-Dog
"Red-Cloud's" band 95. Goes-through-the-Camp 96. Big-Road 97. Brings-Lots-of-Horses 98. Little-Shell 99. Gap 100. Fills-the-Pipe 101. Lodge-Roll 102. Red-Bull 103. Runs-his-Horse 104. Licks-with-his-tongue 105. Old-Horse 106. Tracks 107. Bob-tail-Horse 108. White-Elk 109. Little-Sun 110. Keeps-the-Battle 111. High-Cloud 112. Bone-Necklace 113. Goes-Walking 114. Iron-Horse 115. Blue-Hatchet
"Red-Cloud's" band 116. Eagle-Bird 117. Iron-Bird 118. Long-Panther 119. Bull-Lance 120. Black-Horse 121. Pook-Skunk 122. Own-the-Arrows 123. Shot 124. Red-Boy 125. Bear-Head 126. Hard 127. Eagle-Horse 128. Blue-Bird 129. Good-Bird 130. Caught-the-Enemy
"Red-Shirt's" band [Wagluhe?] 131. Leafing 132. Horned-Horse 133. White-Whirlwind 134. Wolf-Ear 135. Afraid-of-Elk 136. Feathers 137. Tall-Man 138. Elk-Head 139. Ring-Owl 140. Standing-Bear 141. Small-Ring 142. Charging-Hawk 143. Afraid-of-Bull 144. Medicine-Horse 145. Two-Eagle 146. Red-Shirt 147. Bear-Nostrils 148. Spotted-Horse 149. Afraid-of-Bear
"Red-Shirt's" band [Wagluhe?] 150. Little-Bull 151. Red-Hawk 152. Bear-Paw 153. Eagle-Horse 154. Red-Beaver 155. Spotted-Eagle 156. Little-Crow 157. Black-Horse 158. Mouse 159. Count-the-Night 160. White-Eagle 161. Five-Thunders 162. White-Horse
"Red-Shirt's" band [Wagluhe?] 163. Killed-First 164. Scout 165. Yellow-Horse 166. Charge-After 167. Black-Bear 168. Kills-the-Enemy 169. Wolf-stands on-a-Hill 170. Eagle-Bear 171. Little-Wolf 172. Spotted-Elk 173. Elk-walking-with-his-Voice 174. Weasel-Bear
"Black-Deer's" band 175. Black-Elk 176. Takes-Enemy 177. Poor-Bull 178. Eagle-Elk 179. Thunder-Pipe 180. Horse-comes-out 181. Old-Mexican 182. Shield 183. Keeps-the-Battle 184. Wolf-stands-on-Hill 185. Bear-comes-out
"Black-Deer's" band 186. Good-Bull 187. Fog 188. Bear-that-growls 189. Drags-the-rope 190. White-Tail 191. Feathers 192. Fighting-Cuss 193. Horned-Horse 194. Enemies-hit-him 195. Black-Bear 196. Red-War-Bonnet
"Black-Deer's" band 197. Black-Weasel 198. Smokes-at-Night 199. Little-Cloud 200. Good-Bull 201. Medicine 202. Stone-Necklace 203. Bad-Horn 204. High-Eagle 205. Black-Bull 206. Man-with-heart 207. Little-Ring 208. Goes-in-Front 209. Little-Fighter 210. Mean-Boy
"Red-Hawk's" band [one of band Oyuhpe?] 211. Red-Hawk 212. White-Bear 213. Many-Shells 214. Yellow-Knife 215. Crazy-Head 216. Shoots-the-Animal 217. Kills-Two 218. Fast-Horse 219. Big-Turnip 220. Yellow-Owl 221. Red-Bull 222. Garter
"Red-Hawk's" band [one of band Oyuhpe?] 223. Black-Fox 224. Kills-two 225. Grasp 226. Medicine 227. Leaves 228. Big-Hand 229. Gun 230. Bad-Boy 231. Warrior 232. Afraid-of-Him 233. Cloud-Ring 234. Kills-the-Bear 235. Comes-in-Sight
"High-Wolf's" band [Payabya?] 236. Sits-like-a-Woman 237. Surrounds-them 238. High-Bear 239. Don’t-turn 240. Black-Bird 241. Swallow 242. Little-Elk 243. Little-Bird 244. Bear-Back
"High-Wolf's" band [Payabya?] 245. Little-Back 246. Buffalo-Horn 247. Iron-Bird 248. Bull 249. Eagle-Track 250. Medicine-Bird 251. Fox 252. White-Bear 253. Tall-Panther
"Gun's" band 254. Gun 255. Ring 256. Beads 257. Wolf 258. Black-Horse 259. White-Horse 260. Spotted-Owl 261. Don’t-turn 262. Red-Star 263. Big-Voiced-Eagle 264. White-Elk 265. Porcupine
"Gun's" Band 266. Noon 267. Warrior 268. Eagle-Feather 269. Round 270. Big-Thunder 271. Shot-His-Horse 272. Red-Bear 273. Little-Moon 274. Feather-Necklace 275. Fast-Elk - Быстрый-Лось 276. Black-Bull - Чёрный-Бык 277. Light - Свет
"Second Black-Deer's" band 278. Black-Deer 279. White-Cow-Man 280. Horse-the-Clothing 281. Stabber 282. Eagle-Swallow 283. Afraid-of-him 284. Red-Boy 285. Dog-with-good-voice 286. Tall-Pine 287. Pipe 288. Few-Tails 289. Medicine-man
There is split by tiyospaye or is it random ? Some groups have repeated several times - such as Red Cloud's band, Red Shirt's band etc.
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Post by kingsleybray on Feb 8, 2016 6:36:11 GMT -5
The so called Red Cloud census is a bit of a puzzle I confess, grigoyev. It was produced at the height of the clash btw Red Cloud and Agent McGillycuddy and represents a vote of confidence in Red Cloud by certain Oglala headmen and warriors at that time supportive of him against the agent. It probably dates to summer 1882, soon after the return of the Oglalas who had been in Canadian exile after the Great Sioux War. Some of their headmen are in this list -- especially He Dog and the leadership of the Sore Backs tiyospaye. As a nephew of Red Cloud's He Dog's family's presence is not unexpected.
Of the others I would like to be able to say more. Red Shirt was one of the headmen in the Loafer (Wagluhe) band of course. It's interesting that the three brothers -- 172. Spotted-Elk 173. Elk-walking-with-his-Voice 174. Weasel-Bear are listed with Red Shirt. They were Miniconjou, but came down from Standing Rock in spring 1882 to Pine Ridge with the surrendered Northern bands. Spotted Elk married an Oglala girl in 1882 approx. and these brothers settled along White Clay creek north of Pine Ridge Village.
High Wolf (aka Sits Like A Woman) was the headman of the Peshla tiyospaye. In the 1870s it was aligned with Old Man Afraid of His Horse for a few years. The Peshla settled along Porcupine Creek on Pine Ridge, I think in spring 1880, when Oglala bands scattered across the reservation.
Black Deer --- looking at the names I get a lot of Oyuhpe band connections flashing up. Red Hawk also Oyuhpe, with a number of name connections to the Wakan sub-band. Both these 'bands' include names from the Northern people brought down from Standing Rock, and people who had been at the agency through 1877-1882.
Gun? I don't know ... but I would warn against assuming these 'bands' necessarily reflect social realities with 100% accuracy. The census is a political statement with a lot of spin. There are so many names I would conclude that not all are heads of families.
Hope this helps ...........
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Post by kingsleybray on Feb 8, 2016 6:49:27 GMT -5
grigoryev, re the Big Road Roster:
how did you come up with the sub-divisions of Low Dog's band? namely Has A War Club and Bear Spares Him? I don't have a copy of the Roster as originally published by Mallery here, but my notes just list families 11-45 as Low Dog's band. That's also how Ephriam Dickson presents the Big Road Roster in his book THE SITTING BULL SURRENDER CENSUS.
Those late families under Low Dog included some I thought might be Hoka-yuta.
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Post by grigoryev on Feb 8, 2016 13:48:51 GMT -5
Hello. Kingsley you were right about Low Dog's band. I found the following comments to the Roster of Big Road The original drawings were made on a single sheet of paper (13 x 17 inches) black and colored pencils, and a few pieces of yellow ocher - watercolors. On each of the seven plates, which are separated from the original edition of the process conditions, the first figure in the upper left corner is allegedly the leader of a group, or perhaps the "family" in the Indian sense. On five plates leader is in front of a decorated tube and bag, figures which differ from each other. On plates LIV and LV left upper figure does not have the pipes, which implies a suspicion reverse for information is still considered proper that all the figures from 11 to 45 inclusive on plates LIII, LIV and LV, form one group under the leadership of the leader namely No.11. In this case, Nos.23 and 36 minor divisions are leaders of this group. Each of the five leaders has at least three transverse strips of various kinds on the cheek. Note that each figure on the plates, which keeps the front of a battle mace, decorated with three red horizontal stripes, and at No.30 and No.48 plate LIV on plate LVI has three lanes, but do not have a club. Other male figures in some cases, have a red band, in other - two bands, red and blue, but drawn so neotchёtlivo that cause uncertainty. It is also noted that in four cases (Nos.14, 44, 45 and 72), women are portrayed as survivors of the heads of families. Their images have no transverse bands on the cheek. And yet, the five leaders are not combat maces, their rank shows the tube and bag. Those men who have a club in his hand fighting, they held vertically in front of you, have to his credit a number of military campaigns (in accordance with a similar custom among the other branches Dakota nation in which, however, instead of holding the handset a club). In addition there is another source: www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1883-pictograph-27-twelve-oglala-sioux-sub
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Post by grigoryev on Feb 8, 2016 16:14:44 GMT -5
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Post by grigoryev on May 11, 2017 15:02:51 GMT -5
Hello. I decided to return to the beginning. So, here's the corrected for me distribution of Oglala 1804: The Oglala Tribe in generation 1800-1825. Population in 1804 reconstructed as 1000 people, 100 lodges. Breakdown as reconstructed for 1804, contains two maximal bands (oshpaye), comprising approximately five camps or sub-bands (wichoti) and fourteen tiyoshpaye (extended family clusters).
Maximal Band A. Oglala proper maximal band (oshpaye): approximately 600 people, 60 lodges in 1804.
1. Oglala-hca, True Oglala
• Wamnuha-owin (Cowrie Shell Earrings) Standing Bull family • Mahto (Bear tiyoshpaye), Sitting Bear family (leads to American Horse family) • Iya Shicha (Bad Talkers) • Iwayusota (Used Up by Begging), leads to Walks Underground, Black Bear families • Ite Shicha (Bad Face), Fast Whirlwind family, Brave Bear family
2. Tashnahecha-yuta, Ground Squirrel Eaters
• Tashnahecha-yuta (Ground Squirrel Eaters), Bad Wound family • Kiyuksa (Break in Middle), Stone Knife, White Swan families • Kiyuksa (sister band to above), Two Crows family
3. Hunkpatila, Camp at the Horn
• Tishayaote (Red Lodge band), Yellow Eagle family • Kapozhela, (Light-weight), Black Elk family • Hinhan Hupahu (Owl Wing tiyospaye), Ghost Boy family
Maximal Band B. Shiyo maximal band (oshpaye): approximately 400 people, 40 lodges in 1804.
1.Shiyo proper (to Brules, c. 1830+)
• Shiyo-tanka (Large Prairie Hen), • Homna (Smells of Fish) • Shiyo-suhula (Small Prairie Hen)
2.(Remain with Oglalas, c. 1830+)
• Shoulder family • Shell Man family • White Bull family
I still could not determine which sub-group belonged to the chief White Robe.
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Post by kingsleybray on May 11, 2017 17:17:59 GMT -5
I now know the exact 1804 Oglala tribal camp circle -- so this supersedes all previous speculations.
Reconstruction of Oglala Tribal Composition c. 1804 Oglala tribe or oyate, c. 1804 – 1000 people, 100 family lodges or tipi, grouped in two maximal bands or oshpaye (i.e. bands with specific territorial claims): 1. “O-kan-dan-das”, or Oglala proper (approximately 60 lodges, range west of Missouri valley, along Bad river toward Black Hills) 2. “She-o”, or Shiyo (approximately 40 lodges, range in and east of Missouri valley)
1. Oglala proper comprised four main bands or tiyoshpaye
(a) Hunkpatila – 1804 wakichunze Yellow Eagle (Wambli Zi); three sub-bands or wicoti • Red Rattle, Wagmuha Luta (headman Yellow Eagle III) • Lightning Lance, Wahukeza Wakangli (headman Black Elk I, Hehaka Sapa) • Owl Wing, Hupahu Hinhan (headman White Owl, Hinhan Ska)
(b) Bad Speakers, Iya Shicha – 1804 wakichunze White Antelope; two sub-bands • Earth Eater, Maka Yuta (headman Earth Eater) • Bad Speakers, Iya-shicha (headman Sitting Bear, Mato Iyotake)
(c) Bear People – 1804 wakichunze Black Wind Appearing; two sub-bands • Bear People, Mato Oyate (headman Bear Eats Roots, Mato Wayuhtata) • Cowrie Shell Earrings, Wakmuha-owin (headman Standing Bull, Tatanka Nazhin)
(d) Kiyuksa or Kiyaksa – 1804 wakichunze Bad Wound; four sub-bands • Ground Squirrel Eaters, Tashnahecha-yuta (headman Bad Wound*, Owe-shicha) • Bad Face, Ite Shicha (headman Yellow Leggings) • Kiyaksa i, Bitten in Two (headman Stone Knife) • Kiyaksa ii (headman Short-Haired Bear)
2. Shiyo comprised three main bands:
(a) Defecates in Lodge, Tiyochesli(headman and 1804 wakichunze Stabber**)
(b) Shiyo proper, 1804 wakichunze Black Spotted Warbonnet; two sub-bands: • Sharptail Grouse, Shiyo (headmen, White Robe***, Black Spotted Warbonnet) • Hollowed-out, Skokpa (headmen First Stone Walking, Sits in Wallow)
(c) Payabya, 1804 wakichunze Red Bear Necklace; three sub-bands: • Never Misses, Wotanyeya (headman White Rock) • Black Calf, Ptehinchala Sapa (headman Hard to Understand) • Southern Nation, Itokaga oyate (headman Lives in Rocks, Iguga-oti)
The headmen comprised the core of the Oglala chiefs’ council or nacha omnichiye. In 1804 the principal headmen were: * Bad Wound: Principal chief of Ground Squirrel Eaters sub-band, of True Oglala main band, of Oglala proper maximal band, and of Oglala tribe. Wakichunze or Decider.
**Stabber: Principal chief of Tiyochesli sub-band and Shiyo maximal band. Wakichunze or Decider.
***White Robe: Former principal chief of Shiyo maximal band, aged but still active headman. Former wakichunze or Decider.
Nb. The 19th century Oglala population was growing and the system was dynamic; several sub-bands evolved into main bands through population growth; some main bands (e.g. Kiyuksa) evolved into maximal bands by controlling new hunting ranges.
Sources: Wm Clark, Estimate of the Eastern Indians, compiled winter 1804-05; Annie Heloise Abel, ed., Tabeau’s Narrative of Loisel’s Expedition to the Upper Missouri; Zebulon Pike, Abstract of the Nations of the Indians on the Mississippi and its confluent streams, compiled 1805; George E. Hyde, Red Cloud’s Folk: A History of the Oglala Sioux Indians; H. Scudder Mekeel, 1931 Field Notes, White Clay Dist., Pine Ridge Reservation; Kingsley M. Bray conversations with Oglala sources, 2015-2016; Kingsley M. Bray, ‘Teton Sioux Population History, 1655-1881’, Nebraska History, 75: 2 (1994).
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Post by grigoryev on May 12, 2017 15:37:08 GMT -5
Thanks. Interesting. New information clarified some dark spots. At the same time, new questions are born. For example, new tiyospaye with new previously mentioned leaders is now shown. Secondly, some of the previously mentioned facts now require rethinking. For example, earlier tiyospaye Skokpa was considered one of the three tiyospaye Red Water. Only then it was joined by some of the disbanded sub-band Shiyo. Now we see that she was originally Shiyo.
Bad Face, we see already among the sub-band Kiyuksa, and not among the True Oglala. This explains why Bad Face and Kiyuksa in 1841 were in the same camp. But now it's unclear how the headman Yellow Leggings and the Brave Bear and Fast Whirlwind are related.
In addition, we see Payabya among Shiyo. And earlier it was said that this group was founded by the Iron Hatchet, having become related to the Man Affraid his horses.
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Post by grigoryev on May 13, 2017 5:03:15 GMT -5
Dear Kingsley. How did the pitch change in 1815? And then 1825? Earlier it was mentioned that there were two waves New arrivals:
1. Possibly joins the Oglalas winter 1804-1805 in connection with the hunka ceremony reformation detailed in J. R. Walker traditions (Lakota Belief and Ritual, doc's 72-78).
• Little Bull family (leads to Whistler-Two Lance family) • Paints His Chin Red family (leads to Little Dog-Spotted Horse-Big Brain-No Flesh families)
2. Joins the Oglalas permanently 1820 (after period floating between Brule and Oglala circles, beginning 1812: cf. Cloud Shield winter count; He Dog statement to S. Mekeel).
• Two Arrows-Lone Man family (amalgamates with Bad Face period 1825-1840) • Lightning Horse, Man Afraid of His Horse family (becomes Payabya band, amalgamates with Hunkpatila camp period 1825-1840)
How did Man Afraid His Horse become associated with Payabia? Or did he belong to one of the three tiyospaye Payabya? In addition, there were marriages between sub-bands Standing Bull and Black Elk. Did this lead to what I assumed earlier to shift his tiyospaye to Hunkappila?
As I understand the first group and was actually Kuhinyan. Are the data available as the names of the tiyospaye which make up this group? This band with Kiyuksa form a new maximum group (ospaye) - Kukhinyan. If there were usually 7 camps in the tribal circle, with the arrival of this group, which groups united? True Oglala or True Shiyo?
The second band was apparently not part of Kuhinyan, as the two tiyospaye of its composition merged with the Bad Faces and Payabya, but did not join Kuhinyan. Or is it not true?
Thanks!
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Post by grigoryev on May 15, 2017 15:12:57 GMT -5
Hello. Here's what happened to me on 1825. Population in 1825 is estimated at 1500 (Gen. H. Atkinson report), representing a 50% increase on 1804 reconstruction. Maximal Band A. Oglala proper maximal band (oshpaye): approximately 500 people, 50 lodges 1. Hunkpatila – 1825 wakichunze Ghost Boy; three sub-bands or wicho-ti • Red Rattle, Wagmuha Luta (headman Yellow Eagle III) • Lightning Lance, Wahukeza Wakangli (headman Black Elk I, Hehaka Sapa) • Owl Wing, Hupahu Hinhan (headman Ghost Boy)* *When he died headman White Owl, Hinhan Ska? Ghost Boy was married to his daughter? 2. True Oglala – 1825 wakichunze Standing Bull II; five? sub-bands • Earth Eater, Maka Yuta (headman?)* • Bad Speakers, Iya-shicha (headman Sitting Bear II, Mato Iyotake II?) • Bear People, Mato Oyate (headman ?)** • Cowrie Shell Earrings, Wakmuha-owin (headman Standing Bull II, Tatanka Nazhin II) • Refuse to Move Camp, Iglakatekhila (headmen by 1840+ is Yellow Thunder)*** *Who inherited to the headman Earth Eater? **Who inherited to the headman Bear Eats Roots, Mato Wayuhtata? ***Refuse to Move Camp in 1835 were among the sub-bands of True Oglala, who did not go south along with Bull Bear. As Kingsley reported, they were one of the sub-band Wazhazha. And in 1835 were listed among True Oglala. Therefore, they most likely came along with one of the waves of Kukhinyan. Maximal Band B. Kuhinyan maximal band (oshpaye). approximately 450 people, 45 lodges 1. Kiyuksa or Kiyaksa – 1825 wakichunze Crazy Bear; five sub-bands • Bad Face, Ite Shicha (headman Yellow Leggings)* • Two Arrows-Lone Man tiyoshpaye (amalgamates with Bad Face period 1825-1840), headman Lone Man • Kiyaksa i, Bitten in Two (headman Bull Bear) • Kiyaksa ii, (headman Two Crow or headman Short-Haired Bear?) • Ground Squirrel Eaters, Tashnahecha-yuta (headman Bad Wound, Owe-shicha) *Among the Bad Face mentioned Little Bad Wolf, who was married to the sister of the famous Red Cloud and in whose tent the last lived before his wedding. By age, it may well be one of the sons of Yellow Leggings. 2. Kuhinyan. • Little Bull tiyoshpaye (leads to Whistler-Two Lance family) • Paints His Chin Red tiyoshpaye (leads to Little Dog-Spotted Horse-Big Brain-No Flesh families) 3.Kuhinyan II? • Tashunka Wakangli (Lightning Horse), headman Man Afraid of His Horse Maximal Band C. Shiyo maximal band (oshpaye). Comprised three main bands. approximately 550 people, 55 lodges 1. Defecates in Lodge • Defecates in Lodge, Tiyochesli (headman Stabber)* *After 1835, part of Shiyo moved to Brule. In 1855 Stabber is mentioned among Wazhazha. It is possible that this is the tiyoshpaye Tiyochesli went to Brule and began to live with Wazhazha 2. Shiyo proper, 1825 wakichunze Shoulder; two sub-bands: • Sharptail Grouse, Shiyo (headmen Shoulder) • Hollowed-out, Skokpa (headman Calfskin Robe, headman Slow Bear I)* *headmen Calfskin Robe was son of Sits in Wallow, his cousin Slow Bear I can be son of First Stone Walking 3. Payabya, 1825 wakichunze ; three sub-bands: • Never Misses, Wotanyeya (headman ?)* • Black Calf, Ptehinchala Sapa (headman ?)**• Southern Nation, Itokaga oyate (headman ?)***
*Who inherited to the headman White Rock? **Who inherited to the headman Hard to Understand? ***Who inherited to the headman Lives in Rocks, Iguga-o?
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Post by kingsleybray on May 16, 2017 3:12:33 GMT -5
grigoryev ---
Skokpa, the founding wicoti of the Spleen band: was itself ultimately derived from the Minisala grouping. As such it was associated with the Brule (Sicangu) tribal division of the Lakota. In the late 18th c. it realigned to the Shiyo band, which is where we find it in the 1804 Oglala camp circle.
Yellow Leggings, Bad Face wicoti headman in the early 19th c. -- was the father of Brave Bear and so the paternal grandfather of George Sword and Afraid of Bear. I don't know how he was, or if he was, related to Fast Whirlwind.
Unfortunately my Oglala sources do not shed any new light on Iron Hatchet's role in the formation or re-founding of the Payabya band. They are familiar with Iron Hatchet, aka Black Bird, as a brother of Bull Bear, but are unaware of his Payabya connections. What has been made clear to me is that Payabya was an old band, long predating the 19th c.
At the 1804 timeframe the Man Afraid of His Horse family was living with the Kuhinyan band which had left the Oglala circle and was shifting btw the Oglalas and the Sicangus. It returned to the Oglala hoop in 1818.
Also, grigoryev, some of your reconstructions of Lakota band names are wrong: I have reposted my message to include the Lakota names.
Later this year, Nebraska History nagazine is publishing my article on the Oglalas and the Atkinson-O'Fallon Treaty, which will include a full presentation of the 1825 Oglala camp circle.
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