Cochise

[Deleted]

PS Jasper
I don't know what golinka means I think it's kinda like the old Apache term for white-eyes " los goddammies" Have a nice evening.!
Redpaint

[jasper4]

Sept 16, 2016 17:06:06 GMT -5 @redpaint said:

Hi Jasper,
The photo I have is of Mangus, not his father, there are no known photos of his father. Thank you for writing, and I am sure you should keep contributing here. I like your posts, you speak your mind, and I respect you for that. Could you tell us about Mildred Cleghorn? Many Thanks!!!
Redpaint

Google it, for the dead are gone and it is custom not to speak in length about them.

[jasper4]

Sept 16, 2016 17:26:56 GMT -5 @redpaint said:

PS Jasper
I don't know what golinka means I think it's kinda like the old Apache term for white-eyes " los goddammies" Have a nice evening.!
Redpaint

FYI no offense///
Pepe Le Pew is a character in the Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies series. An anthropomorphic, skunk(golinka), Pepe is continuously in search of romance, but his scent, self-delusion, and his overly persistent manner inhibit his efforts.

[Deleted]

Kinda like you, Jasper!

[Apache65]

It is passed down through my family that Naiche is my Great Great Grandfather. I don't know from which one of his wives. My Great Grandmother, Maria Elena Espinoza was his daughter and married my Great Grandfather, Frank James Kirkland. This is not documented with legal papers..my G Grandmother said that it was a traditional Apache wedding. She also said that her father (Naiche) wasn't home very much...he was a heavy drinker. This is what I know that has been passed down to me from generations.

[coeurrouge]

Oct 10, 2016 0:55:46 GMT -5 Apache65 said:

It is passed down through my family that Naiche is my Great Great Grandfather. I don't know from which one of his wives. My Great Grandmother, Maria Elena Espinoza was his daughter and married my Great Grandfather, Frank James Kirkland. This is not documented with legal papers..my G Grandmother said that it was a traditional Apache wedding. She also said that her father (Naiche) wasn't home very much...he was a heavy drinker. This is what I know that has been passed down to me from generations.

I will upset you before others will do but:

Naiche never had a doughter named Maria, Elena as I know. For his 14 children, only 2 sons Christian, Barnabas and 4 daugthers Dorothy, Amelia, Hazel and Jane survived from POW. SO There is big doubts that your Great Great Grandmother was a Naiche's daughter.

[coeurrouge]

Hi everybody, it was a long time.

I just find that. I will research by myself but is there somebody can identify this Apache?
It is in the front page of the new édtion, in French, of Sweeney's Biography of Cochise. It is maybe a draw but I think is a photo.

The man seems to be alchesay but I not sure and it is well known that Cochise and Alchesay did not belong to the same tribe and were not related, so it is weared Alchesay could be in the front page of a book about Cochise.

If he was not Alchesay who was he?

in the first page the editor of the collection write that the photo could be Cochise. The photo was intitulated "San Carlos Western Apache, Unkown, summer 1870". By reflexion thaht Cochise was not known by White people near fort Apache and that Cochise came discretly with some of his Chiricahuas to rest some monthes, the editor think the photograph took the photo of Cochise without know who really he was.

I am surprised that I read this from a french before an American express this; But the man looks like Naiche (right eye moslty).

[naiches2]

[coeurrouge]

Jul 4, 2023 9:41:54 GMT -5 naiches2 said:

View Attachment

efficient as always. Do you have the name of the photographer, please?

The goal was to know if this photographer was near Camp Mogollon during August 1870 (the short period Cochise was there).

Because I hope he was Cochise but I have much doubts. But the model of the winchester is holding seems to be a 1866's model (not 1873 or 1876, but I am not a winchester's specialist).

[wambli ahitunwan]

I can't say with any proven certainty, but I believe the two photos above depict two different men, probably not the same person.

One man has a more tenaciously fierce and fearless face, which also appears far more combat 'battle hardened' to my eyes, than the other man does.

[Californian]

I would concur with Wambli Ahitunwan's assessment. Sure there are great similarities between the two persons to the casual observer. But let's consider this, Naiche's likeness is well known and documented, whereas for 150 years no one ever confirmed an authenticated photograph of Cochise, except for that wrong attribution of the Maynard Dixon painting of that pueblo man. That suddenly a photograph should appear is rather unlikely. If it is the same man, I would rather think it is an older Naiche and the date attributed is simply incorrect.

Here's portrait of an older Naiche, ca. 1910's
click onto image to enlarge

Jul 4, 2023 22:42:30 GMT -5 wambli ahitunwan said:

I can't say with any proven certainty, but I believe the two photos above depict two different men, probably not the same person.
One man has a more tenaciously fierce and fearless face, which also appears far more combat 'battle hardened' to my eyes, than the other man does.

[coeurrouge]

Jul 4, 2023 22:42:30 GMT -5 wambli ahitunwan said:

I can't say with any proven certainty, but I believe the two photos above depict two different men, probably not the same person.

One man has a more tenaciously fierce and fearless face, which also appears far more combat 'battle hardened' to my eyes, than the other man does.

The two photos were different men.
Left a man that a French editor write to be possibly Cochise
Right : Naiche youngest son of Cochise who was well known to looks like his father.

[coeurrouge]

photo montage I make (just put eyes of Naiche on the face of the warrior on the left).

Could be possible that the warrior on the left was Cochise? Your guess.

[Californian]

bonsoir Coeur Rouge, at best if it is the same man, I would say that it is Naiche, middle aged. Given the historical prominence of Cochise had there ever been a photograph it would be widely known. But early on the general consensus among historians for the past 100+ years is, that there neither Cochise nor Mangas Coloradas have allowed to be photographed and just too long ago a photograph billed billed as showing Victorio has been discounted. If, and only just if (!)... Cochise had been photographed, he would have been an old man having been born around 1805).