Cochise

[jasper4]

she was married off young to a white man RED FLAG here for me or you speak as if she was a object of sorts to be bartered off to any anglo. Or this I need not go further than to say NO kin of Naiche was given to whoever. end of tale.

[jasper4]

Mar 23, 2015 18:17:22 GMT -5 chi1 said:

Feb 26, 2015 21:45:10 GMT -5 jasper4 said:

The nees of the many outweigh the needs of the One. The fact of the matter is or was the traitional ways which can be romantized by whomever. As for royalty is was none, it was the strongest an wisest warrior whose lot was chosen or won for attributes in battle or meeting the needs of the people. And whose leadership coul be question or questioned at any time by which warrior had issues with the leadership of the Nantan. The sum of any [erson who leads is the ability to give to his group the basics life, food, and peace. Which many other nantans had proven way before the end of the Nde lifestyle. The fact of the matter is as with any group ie the spartans whose own way of life proved to be admired by many. The traditional ways of teaching young boys or novices the ways of War and the hunt, and other traits such as the War' talk which many dont speak of or remember. Only The Strong Survive!
Enjun

Great Lesson!!!

Here is how an Apache explained the qualities of an ideal leader in the 1880s:

“The leader is supposed to talk to his people. He is supposed to be sympathetic and tell them how to live, sympathetic in the sense of giving out horses and valuables to those who need them. The leader is supposed to give something to eat to everyone who comes around in need. He has control in time of war. You can’t disobey him. The leader advises people to help the unfortunate, to give to those whose luck is bad. He advises against fights in the camps; he doesn’t want any quarrels within the group. He advises the people to be on the lookout all the time. He may request that a ceremony be performed by a Diiyin a healer for the benefit of the men during a raid. If the leader is advised by the diiyin as a result of such a ceremony to do this or that, he carries out what the power tells him to do. A man must be wealthy and have a big following to be a Nantan.”

[ouroboros]

I found an intersesting description of Cochise:

" This “royalty” manifested itself in his physical stature. Cochise was nearly 6 foot tall, unusual for Apaches, had an eagle like face, Black eyes, very handsome by most reports, impeccably clean/dressed, with a slight stoop from a Comanche arrow".

Link: cochiseresearch.blogspot.com/2012/03/cochise-early-years.html

I am very curiouse about the "stoop from a Comanche arrow". If anyone knows about it something, I would be very grateful.

[Deleted]

There was some interaction between the Comanches and the Apaches, starting in the 1600's. It is widely believed the Apaches were Southern Plains indians as they migrated south from the Athabaskan regions.
They were however no match for the Comanches, just like most of the other tribes on the plains the Comanches encountered. The Comanches pushed the Apaches out to the Southwest, what is now Southern Arizona and Southwest New Mexico. There is some historical evidence that the Apaches had "teepees" widely known to be constructed with buffalo hides. No buffalo were abundant in the Gila Region the Apaches called home from 1700 -1886, however they did raid into the plains of NE New Mexico, apparently securing enough bison for their needs. The Apaches may have encountered some Comanche raiding parties during Cochise's early lifetime, and the Apaches were probably whipped by the superior Comanches, hence the wound to Cochise.

[jasper4]

Jun 21, 2016 18:45:42 GMT -5 @redpaint said:

There was some interaction between the Comanches and the Apaches, starting in the 1600's. It is widely believed the Apaches were Southern Plains indians as they migrated south from the Athabaskan regions.
They were however no match for the Comanches, just like most of the other tribes on the plains the Comanches encountered. The Comanches pushed the Apaches out to the Southwest, what is now Southern Arizona and Southwest New Mexico. There is some historical evidence that the Apaches had "teepees" widely known to be constructed with buffalo hides. No buffalo were abundant in the Gila Region the Apaches called home from 1700 -1886, however they did raid into the plains of NE New Mexico, apparently securing enough bison for their needs. The Apaches may have encountered some Comanche raiding parties during Cochise's early lifetime, and the Apaches were probably whipped by the superior Comanches, hence the wound to Cochise.

now you have hardwood fighting the comanche Wow or no comanche ever got into az or southwest new mexico. maybe scalp hunters yet live your dream which seems to be that the comanche are your dream team. and before you go twisted cite your sources but have a nice day

[Deleted]

Please see Chapter 17, "The Apaches and Comanches" in the book titled "Apache Voices" by Sherry Robinson. That's just one cite. The Comanches did what they wanted to with other Indian tribes. They raided wherever they wanted to and whomever they wanted. Having studied this over 30 yrs, the only people the Comanches were deathly afraid of, including all Plains Indians and the Apaches were the Texas Rangers.... they were young (18-24 yrs old) armed with Colt Navy Revolvers and Sharps rifles, and they employed the exact tactics of the Comanches( they would ride all night and day to overtake the Comanches, the same tactic the Comanches used to escape) When they caught the Comanches, it wasn't a pretty sight.
Well Jasper 4, you have a nice day....

[Deleted]

PS Jasper,
I'm not twisted against Apaches. Just got my original Photo of Mangus (Wittick photo) that I bought at Auction recently. Believe it or not, I am 100% behind Apache, and have actually been a health care provider for Apaches , Navahoes, and "casino Indians" near Tucson. And I have actually been to Ojo Caliente. Have a good day. I am not trying to be your enemy.
redpaint

[coeurrouge]

as I understand the Navajos, Chiricahua and Western Apaches came in the southwest throw mountains from the north moving across the Rockies. They arrived here at the same time or not long before the spanish. Jicarillas, Mescaleros and other plains Apaches were pushed by the Comanche. But the Comanches were also pushed by Pawnees well armed and helped by French people an rifles. The French during the 1600s and 1700s claimed to own the Louisiana (the territory on th west side of The Mississippi.)But they did not control a lot.
To conclude like most the Shoshones were Mountains "Snakes" and the Comanches the Plain "Snakes", I think there was Mountains Apaches and Plains Apaches before the Comanche began to dominate southern plains.

[chicheman]

I agree with coeurrouge, that´s what I learned too, there were Nde People in the mountains as well as on the Plains living, already for a period of time. The Plains Groups had Trouble with Comanches who started around 1700 to Show up and fights happend. Although the Comanches seemed to have acted Kind of agressively, they were not like White Eyes who pushed Indians on Reservations and controlled every aspect of life. I´ll thank Jasper for his explanations also. I don´t think Comanches did have much contact with Chiricahuas and Western Apaches. But there are records of raids between Comanches and Navajos, and Kiowas and Navajos, back and forth. Good reading about Plains Apache, in my opinion, is
"Rethinking the Dismal River Aspect", Karl H. Schlesier, "Plains Indians AD 500 - 1500, also by Karl H. Schlesier as well as "I fought a good fight - A History of the Lipan Apaches" by Sherry Robinson.

chicheman

[Deleted]

Great responses. If you go back to the start of this thread, someone said that they read an article that Cochise "was bent from a Comanche arrow" Nothing posted by coeurrouge or chicheman discounts this theory...nothing! In fact both agree that there was interaction between Apaches and Comanches. and they have no idea how far back that goes.... could be to early life of Cochise!!! Also, please read "Nine Years Among the Indians" by Herman Lehman, who was kidnapped by Apaches in the Texas Hill Country in the mid-1850's (probably Lipan) killed his Apache godfather, and escaped to Comanches. Great book! In fact Q

[chicheman]

hello redpaint,

I was trying to find the Story of Cochise "been bent from a Comanche arrow" at the beginning of this thread. Couldn´t find it here, nor in the net, where I tried to figure out.
Didn´t read "Nine Years among the Indians" by Herman Lehman yet, but I´m a Little familiar with the Story. Indeed it is said it were Lipans who took him captive as a Boy. Right Lipans did meet Comanches Kind of often, sometimes as enemies, sometimes as allies, depending on the time period in history. But that is not surprising, since Lipans lived originally in Texas mainly and across over to Mexico. Neighbours of the Comanches.
I would be more than interested to find a source of the incident when Cochise was wounded by a Comanche arrow. Do you have any trace our source for that ? Would be glad to learn about. Thanks for what you share.

[tkavanagh]

Forget both Schlesier and Lehmann.
-Schlesier puts too much emphasis on the Comanche migration stuff (myth) EL Clark got from Siachinikia which he then sent to Wm Clark for use tin the sign language book.
-Lehmann, and/or his ghost writers, was a plagiarist (more likely the latter as I am more and more convinced that he could barely read or write.) I don't believe Lehmann was ever with Comanches pre 1877

[chicheman]

tk, thanks a lot for your opinion. Always glad about you sharing your Comanche Expertise, very appreciated.

[Deleted]

Jun 30, 2016 11:46:48 GMT -5 chicheman said:

hello redpaint,

I was trying to find the Story of Cochise "been bent from a Comanche arrow" at the beginning of this thread. Couldn´t find it here, nor in the net, where I tried to figure out.
Didn´t read "Nine Years among the Indians" by Herman Lehman yet, but I´m a Little familiar with the Story. Indeed it is said it were Lipans who took him captive as a Boy. Right Lipans did meet Comanches Kind of often, sometimes as enemies, sometimes as allies, depending on the time period in history. But that is not surprising, since Lipans lived originally in Texas mainly and across over to Mexico. Neighbours of the Comanches.
I would be more than interested to find a source of the incident when Cochise was wounded by a Comanche arrow. Do you have any trace our source for that ? Would be glad to learn about. Thanks for what you share.

Actually, if you goback a couple of responses, it is right in front of your eyes. Look it up Also I look forward to your responses. I kind of like your your term the Lipans were neighbors of the comananches. Must kinda be like the " the Ukranians are neighbors to the Russians!!

[Deleted]

Jun 30, 2016 22:22:11 GMT -5 tkavanagh said:

Forget both Schlesier and Lehmann.
-Schlesier puts too much emphasis on the Comanche migration stuff (myth) EL Clark got from Siachinikia which he then sent to Wm Clark for use tin the sign language book.
-Lehmann, and/or his ghost writers, was a plagiarist (more likely the latter as I am more and more convinced that he could barely read or write.) I don't believe Lehmann was ever with Comanches pre 1877

Quanna Parker himself came to the last Comanche holdout and asked them to surrender there were 7 of them and one was Herman Lehman.