Cochise

[chi1]

To reinforce theory
COERROUGE genealogy research refer to Cochise as Goci

II) Goci (1810-08.06.1874)

Try to pronounce Goci on English and Spanish and add a pour spanish with athabascan accent and you get close to Coche or Jose.

[jasper4]

The theory is correct as the records are the same as I as read in 1973 in Janos. Good research yet oral history is at odds with paper in few items of note Dasodahae is chihenne and the kin of older nantan Macho who was grandfather of geronimo via taklaism or gray one. And juan jose the elder or father of jose compa is also. The theory is valid per records yet it is still theory. Point being the sample IE that Biduyah was really mexican and or geonimo was baptised in the church always seem the mexicano way of wanting to be persay the origin or kin of Inde history. I still commend and most certainly enjoy your feedback and would like to hear the insight of Mithlo or Second.

[Mithlo]

Cochise pronounced out in either English and/or Spanish could indeed sound out close to Co-Che.....yet not the Spanish Jose. Also...mostly just white-folks would TRY to claim that Biduyah was really mexican . Truth is all our people say that he was "ALL" N'de!!!! As the story go's Biduyah was close to a Mexican family (boyhood friends) south of the border and would slip down there from time to time for visits. They were good kind and caring folks not just to him but his family.....long time family friends!! Best I remember that Mexican families name was either Gomez or Lopez. And as for Geronimo......WELL.....I have always heard that he was Baptised 3...maybe even 4....times!!! Thats almost funny! Who knows, maybe even more times than that!HA!

[coeurrouge]

Hi Chi1,

I am not sure but I think Pisago Cabezon was Cochise's father. (Sweeney wrote that Cochise was the leader of the Cai-a-he-ne local group as Pisago ?)
it is said that Cochise's father was an important Chiricahua Chief as was Pisago.
As I understand in Apache tradition, every married man lived in his wife family all their marriage. but there were traditionnal exeptions. Sons of important leader after had lived in their wife family 6 months to 1 year came back in their born family and local group. I think Cochise was in this case like Juh or Geronimo.

Why I said that is because the first and principal wife of Cochise was Dosteseh, daughter of Mangas Coloradas and Cochise lived a short year in his father in law's local group and came back to live in his mountains.

And Mangas Coloradas married some of his daughter to allied people. If on the north and east of him it was for protection on the west and south, it was to have strong alliance. It is why he married one of his daugther to a eastern white Mountain Apache maybe Eshkadasilah who became the most powerful chief of this tribe and had close bound with Chiricahuas and Cochise. Then mangas married Dosteseh to a son of a strong chokonen leader around 1835. Who was the strongest leader of the Chokonen and was in a close alliance with Mangas in the 1830s ?
Pisago Cabezon

For me (not sure) Cochise is a full blood chokonen,his father was Pisago Cabezon and his mother was not the principal wife of Pisago. Because Chiricahua leader's segundo were often men of family, it is possible that Miguel Narbona was Cochise's uncle by motherside. Miguel was Chokonen mentor of Cochise in the 1840s and at his death Cochise replace him as the leader.

in this thread I wrote that Cochise had 1 full sister and 2 full brothers (Coyuntura and Juan) I deep think that his sister's husband, until his death on april 1859, was the segundo of Cochise . And that one of their children was Atelnietze. I think Cochise's sister died from malaria in San Carlos in the last of 1870s or disappeared (captured or killed) during the attack of Juh's camp in january 1883.

More about Cochise, always maybe.I also think that Cochise during his reservation time, feeling his death coming, has done like his father's in law. He married his children to important leaders or children of important leaders. if my idea is true I think it was not for alliance or protection, it was to garantee loyalty to Taza, by family obligation, of the local groups of Chokonen and bedonkohe living in the reservation. Based on this idea it will explained why
Naithlotonz married Sheta son of Chiva leader of a bedonkohe local group (the segundo was Benito)
Naiche married Nahdeyole, daughter of Eskinya
I think in 1872 or 1873 Taza married Eclaheh great granddaughter of Makho. Maybe it was to connect to Goyakla (aka El Cautivo-Geronimo)leader of the second local group of Bedonkohe. And as Geronimo had close link with Juh...
By memories there were 3 others local group of Chokonen :
the one of Nahilzay brother in law of Cochise whose loyalty on Cochise was strong.
the one of Cathla who seemed to be a close friend of Taza because he was the other Chirircahua who went to Washington with Taza in 1876.
The one of Kla-esh (Chihuahua)seemed to be independant of Cochise by family link exept if Kaydayzinne had still married with Dash-den-zhoos before Cochise's death.

All of this was my suggestion

[dT]

very interesting thoughts. It would be good to hear the feedback of Nde readers here to Coeurrouge's analysis. These are logical moves by Cochise - when he was a chief who knew that his life is coming to an end.

You can say that he did everything WITHIN his power to keep the Chiricahua's as a people that were strong and united. For the Chiricahua's, agreement was always very difficult to obtain. And unity was often an illusion ... rather than a reality. But Cochise did his best, that's for sure. Who would have known, during the year 1874, that so much would change would happen in the next 20 years - after Cochise was dead. I think that he would be both angry and sad that there are no Nde living at his Stronghold today.

dT

[chi1]

Member of the Apache Royalty.
If Kingship exists among the Ndeh; Something we can not deny about Cochise and Naiche off course, is the apache royalty in full, although the simplicity and equality prevailed in the tribal organization, where everyone had the opportunity to lead their own cell or clan or fraction, where people followed their leaders by conviction and not by obligation, Cochise's family was unquestionably formed by Apache leaders, whether Cochise was the son of Pizago Cabezon or Juan Jose Compa, one son of El Compa and Pizago for sure was son or mentored from a leader, both protagonists of the apache struggle in their respective time, Cochise enriches their offspring with none other than princess Dos Teh Seh, daughter of the leader of the epic Battle of Pozo Hediondo The Great Mangas Coloradas leaving all his lineage to Naiche, descent preserved to this day.

[dT]

Strength through constant battles.
Many of the old Apache bloodlines were very strong. You can see this in the long ages attained by some of the notable elders. Geronimo is one good example. He was chased all over the territory, forced to be constantly running, he ate subsistence food on the rez, he sometimes drank low-quality water when being pursued, but he still lived to a very long age. There were many others. The Apache bloodlines were constantly under pressure by the laws of natural selection ... Only The Strong Survive!

Look at the words of Jason Betzinez. They say something like this. "We saw that the white man went to war every 6-7 years. But for the Apaches, life was a constant struggle. Sometimes fighting, sometimes sickness. The hardship was constant". Those were the decades of the Apache wars.

So the leadership of the Apache bands developed to deal with this. Leaders needed to be very strong, because the people were fighting a struggle for existence. Leadership needed to be passed down from father to son - because there was no room for error. If a chief made a serious mistake, then many lives were lost. Look at Victorio at Tres Castillos. One bad strategy by him, and the entire Apache Nation (traditional) suffered an enormous setback. The hopes for long-term resistance ended ... pretty much right there.

dT

[jasper4]

The nees of the many outweigh the needs of the One. The fact of the matter is or was the traitional ways which can be romantized by whomever. As for royalty is was none, it was the strongest an wisest warrior whose lot was chosen or won for attributes in battle or meeting the needs of the people. And whose leadership coul be question or questioned at any time by which warrior had issues with the leadership of the Nantan. The sum of any [erson who leads is the ability to give to his group the basics life, food, and peace. Which many other nantans had proven way before the end of the Nde lifestyle. The fact of the matter is as with any group ie the spartans whose own way of life proved to be admired by many. The traditional ways of teaching young boys or novices the ways of War and the hunt, and other traits such as the War' talk which many dont speak of or remember. Only The Strong Survive!
Enjun

[jasper4]

Feb 23, 2015 17:58:02 GMT -5 chi1 said:

Member of the Apache Royalty.
If Kingship exists among the Ndeh; Something we can not deny about Cochise and Naiche off course, is the apache royalty in full, although the simplicity and equality prevailed in the tribal organization, where everyone had the opportunity to lead their own cell or clan or fraction, where people followed their leaders by conviction and not by obligation, Cochise's family was unquestionably formed by Apache leaders, whether Cochise was the son of Pizago Cabezon or Juan Jose Compa, one son of El Compa and Pizago for sure was son or mentored from a leader, both protagonists of the apache struggle in their respective time, Cochise enriches their offspring with none other than princess Dos Teh Seh, daughter of the leader of the epic Battle of Pozo Hediondo The Great Mangas Coloradas leaving all his lineage to Naiche, descent preserved to this day.

FYI the daughter of He who sits there was the child of his third wife Maria a mexican girl which the nantan had taken as wife. The event caused great dismay for his two other wives. The event of dasodahae having to fight and kill his two brothers in law in heated conflict made his Power even greater. Thus Naiche mother was half mexican and this story was confirmed to me by A elder of mine Ms. Hugar RIP or best a gem of a human and yes a princess of sorts.

[chi1]

Interesting information Jasper4; then the mother of Dos Teh Seh was Mexican, will have more details as to where she was? or was taken captive? any specific town? even better what family she came from? also consider to whom we call Mexicans, not all Mexicans were mestizos (mixed) Indian and Spanish blood, there was much migration to northern Mexico from Poland and Italy for work in the mines and mills, plus American merchants but there were many who were native blood called Mexicans because culture have been assimilated as to Mexicans, including many Ndeh, at least from Cananea Sonora to Ascension Chihuahua and as south as Namiquipa Chihuahua and Bavispe Sonora. Around them were other natives such as Pimas, Seris O'odoham, Raramuri-Tarahumare, Tepehuane, Huichol, etc. but Sumas and Ndeh on the area descibed above.

[jasper4]

The Woman's last name was Mexican named Ana Carmen Herrera or Huera, documented by ? Davis in his book- "The Truth About Geronimo". She was from El Paso, Texas. The anglo man did not know how to spell the name correctly. She was the Spanish-Apache translator for Mangus, and documented as very intelligent. Maria is an name given her by other anglos.

[dT]

The words of Enjun here are a reminder.

The old world of the Apaches was a harsh world compared to what we are used to seeing today. Apache warriors killed people - often their enemies, and sometimes rivals amongst the Apache peoples. It was not considered unusual to do such a thing, and it was proof of manhood that you did it. The story is told above - about Cochise killing his brothers-in-law. And as Enjun explained, it was seen as increasing the personal power of Cochise.

Today's world is very "soft" compared to the world that existed for these warriors ... a long time ago.

dT

[chi1]

Feb 26, 2015 21:45:10 GMT -5 jasper4 said:

The nees of the many outweigh the needs of the One. The fact of the matter is or was the traitional ways which can be romantized by whomever. As for royalty is was none, it was the strongest an wisest warrior whose lot was chosen or won for attributes in battle or meeting the needs of the people. And whose leadership coul be question or questioned at any time by which warrior had issues with the leadership of the Nantan. The sum of any [erson who leads is the ability to give to his group the basics life, food, and peace. Which many other nantans had proven way before the end of the Nde lifestyle. The fact of the matter is as with any group ie the spartans whose own way of life proved to be admired by many. The traditional ways of teaching young boys or novices the ways of War and the hunt, and other traits such as the War' talk which many dont speak of or remember. Only The Strong Survive!
Enjun

Great Lesson!!!

[angiecoyner]

i need help finding information on one of nachez's daughters. she was married off young to a white man -last name i think was jennings or taylor. all i know is my husband is nachez's great grandson. we are trying to find out her real name. all my mother inlaw knows was that she was known by a nickname. we really need any info or record of her before she was married.

[dT]

I think you are referring to Naiche, the younger son of Cochise. People here commonly refer to him by the name Naiche, although the name Natchez was used in the Old West. So if you search the threads here using the name Naiche you will probably find a lot of information.

Naiche was captured and sent to Fort Marion, Florida in 1886. Later he returned to Fort Sill in Oklahoma, and eventually he moved to the Mescalero Reservation in New Mexico in 1913. He died in 1919 at Mescalero. The Apache people living at Mescalero will know the history of the descendants of Naiche.

Here is a copy of a message posted by Jasper4 on this site that gives some information ...
-------
"Naiche had 1st wife was Nah-de-yole,2nd wife E-clah-heh. his 3rd wife Ha-o-zinne. E-clah-heh was a great granddaughter of Chief Mahko of the Bedonkohes, and 2nd cousin of Geronimo and of Ish-keh who was wife of Chief Juh of the Nednais; and a 1st cousin of Fun, Tsisnah, Jozhe, Sam Haozous's father Goonah-hleenah, and Jason Betzinez. Their children were Dorothy, May, Bah-nas-kli, and Jane Naiche."
------

You should know that the Apache people living at Mescalero have a full accounting of the descendants of their tribe. It is unlikely that there are any daughters belonging to Naiche who are not accounted for.

dT