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Post by coeurrouge on Oct 22, 2011 12:28:02 GMT -5
About the an with the Cap.
I still think he was José Second who came at Embudos with Chihuahua.
If he wasn't him. Could he be Nezulkide?
Nezulkide was an older brother of Kaathenay, the Chihenne's leader, and seemed has fought with Victorio and Nana and certainly a great warrior. He was the last Chihenne warrior to surrender the 14/05/1884.
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Post by kayitah on Oct 22, 2011 13:01:48 GMT -5
Interesting, I thought about Nezulkide too a few days ago. I think it could well be him, since none of the other men seem to resemble the man with the cap, and Nezulkide wears a cap in the Fort Marion image as well.
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Post by magendavid on Oct 22, 2011 15:31:31 GMT -5
good. I agree. If you compare the pictures of the man with the cap and Kaytennae, you can see some resemblance, especially with the nose and the chin. not identical but close, making it acceptable that the two are actually brothers. Moreover, it sure fits with the red coloured face stripes :-)
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Post by coeurrouge on Oct 24, 2011 13:28:53 GMT -5
Interesting, I thought about Nezulkide too a few days ago. I think it could well be him, since none of the other men seem to resemble the man with the cap, and Nezulkide wears a cap in the Fort Marion image as well Maybe, but is there anyone can enlarge the fort Maion 's photo in which we see all the people taken with Chihuahua? It will be helpto identy each of them ! I am sorry, how do you can identified nezulkide as the man xith the cap, the photo's definition is not good enough. Help please...  Attachments:
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Post by kayitah on Oct 24, 2011 13:56:05 GMT -5
You can't enlarge it in a way to maximize the resolution. The picture is what it is...  We just need a high-resolution picture of the Fort Marion photos, but I don't know where to get them. SIRIS doesn't seem to have them, neither does the Sharlot Hall Museum. |
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Post by jeroen on Oct 25, 2011 2:21:01 GMT -5
I think Nezulkide is a good guess... I agree with coeurrouge that none of the other men resembles the man with the cap... and he is the only one in the Fort Marion image wearing a cap... so it must have had special meaning for him... Also, he was a respected warrior which would explain his prominent position in several Fly images...
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Post by Mithlo on Oct 25, 2011 23:30:50 GMT -5
Coeurrouge: Are you aware that the photo of the Chihuahua/Jolsanny group is #1 of #2 photo's taken of them that day? Photo #2 was taken from 10 to 12 feet futher to the right, in which it shows more Chiricahua's standing to the far right (past the last standing warriors on the right in photo#1). Also, past "those" Chiricahua's are 1 or 2 standing soldiers/guards! My "main" point is, photo #2 was more clear and better quality! I seen photo #2 about 3 or 4 years ago (on-line). Best I remember it was from a Florida Library Collection or Florida Museum Archive, ect., but I can't seem to find it again, so I hope you can! Good Luck!!!!  Interesting, I thought about Nezulkide too a few days ago. I think it could well be him, since none of the other men seem to resemble the man with the cap, and Nezulkide wears a cap in the Fort Marion image as well Maybe, but is there anyone can enlarge the fort Maion 's photo in which we see all the people taken with Chihuahua? It will be helpto identy each of them ! I am sorry, how do you can identified nezulkide as the man xith the cap, the photo's definition is not good enough. Help please... |
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Post by kayitah on Oct 26, 2011 1:45:57 GMT -5
Mithlo, are you referring to this image? Attachments:
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Post by Mithlo on Oct 26, 2011 13:59:00 GMT -5
Nope! Thats not the one! (Though I have seen the left-half of this photo before) Mithlo, are you referring to this image? |
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Post by kayitah on Oct 26, 2011 16:41:37 GMT -5
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Post by Montolzh on Feb 15, 2012 22:32:44 GMT -5
Montolzh, nilthdagote' shi enjady junes ye' shi bedonkohe meshgalende tuiende. Nzhuu Penjady, I'xhehe. N'aha' ansi. Nzhuu |
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Post by Mithlo on Jun 23, 2012 1:25:44 GMT -5
I must say, I admire everyone's attempt to identify the man in the cap, with many good idea's, comparisons, and opinions. I appreciate Penjady's input on tradition, knowledge, and his "fine eye" for small (but important) details, right down to the red paint! Yet....I have to disagree with everyone on the mans identity. To figure out who he is....one must figure out who he IS NOT first! Only so many men were in Mexico at the time, so one should take out all the Chiricahua....all the Bedonkohe.... all the Nednai and one or two Mescalero's which leaves very few Warm Springs men at all. Of them, take out those well-known and identified in photographs and any too young or too old to be this man (mid-late 40's or so) and there you have a man....of high prestige and rank....that is I believe....most likely....PONCE!!!! He has a record here at Fort Sill listed as Bon-see , Bonsi, or Ponce along with much info about his life; Ponce was Warm Springs Apache, father unknown, mother was Nah-nelth-chithln (Blinking Her Eyes), his brothers were Sathtin (father of "Big Belle" Nicholas), and Chin-chi (father of Charles Martine Jr.), and his sister was Dolores (wife of George Noche). NOTE: After Chin-chi's death his pregnant widow Cah-gah-ahshy married Martine and when the child was born was "later" named after his step-father Charles Martine. FACT: Ponce was closely related to Cochise, said to be a nephew,....this is true....nephew "by marrage" because Ponce's wife was Cochise's neice....Naiche's cousin. She could have been a sister of Adilnadzid, but "more likely" she was a sister of Chie, young son and daughter of Cochise's brother Coyuntara. According to Ponce himself, Chie was not only his good friend but also his brother-in-law. As years went by Ponce was always closely associated to the Naiche family and relatives. FACT: It was Ponce and Chie whom guided Howard to Cochise in 1872. FACT: Ponce, along with Geronimo, Gordo and others were "arrested" by Clum at Ojo Caliente Agency (NM) in 1877, shackled, and hauled in a wagon to San Carlos Arizona. FACT: Ponce is listed time after time in Army and Agency records from 1878 to 1885. FACT: Ponce was present "in Mexico" when his brother Chin-chi was shot and killed, then dragged behind a horse through a large "plain" of cactus in 1885 or early 1886 (?). FACT: Ponce, by his own admission years later at Fort Sill ,was present at Canyon de los Embudos in early 1886, yet chose not to surrender but to fight on with Naiche, Adilnadzid and others, (his wife may have been one of the women captives being healt at Fort Bowie at that time). He claimed to have been captured by several Mexican soldiers at some point in time in 1886, which leads us to HIS story recorded at Fort Sill in 1905--------------When he was captured he was taken to Chihuahua City and put in a large cell with other captives. To his supprise....he knew most of them!!!! They were members of Mangus's band that were captured in late 1885. They had some kind of sickness among them all (Measles or perhaps Smallpox) and NOBODY wanted to "buy" them, transport them or ever go too "close" to them out of fear of this sickness. Ponce said that over half of them died there including Daklugie's two older brothers Delzhinne and Daklegon, in Chihuahua City....NOT Mexico City. Later, he and the few survivors were sent across Sonora to the Gulf of California, shipped across to Baja and sold into slavery. Ponce never saw the others again and refused to mention their names. Ponce lived in slavery many MANY years. When he did escape, he travled north a long time until he crossed out of Mexico into the U.S., southern California, then east a long time to Arizona, and at San Carlos he learned his people and many family members were at Fort Sill in Oklahoma. He walked even more....to New Mexico....then to Texas....and finally Oklahoma and Fort Sill in 1905. He did indeed find family and many old friends here, but he didn't stay with family or even with the Naiche's, he lived with Asa and Ramona and their family until his death (old age) in 1909. He is buried (under the name Bon-see) in the Beef Creek Cemetery near his mother Nah-nelth-chithln (who died in 1907 at about 95 years old). The MAN IN THE CAP.....WARM SPRINGS.....well-known WARRIOR.....highly respected LEADER..... standing proudly up front with Naiche.....Adilnadzid......Geronimo and others....in my opinion is...."most likely"........PONCE!!!!!!!
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Post by jeroen on Jun 23, 2012 6:43:47 GMT -5
This is a great analysis ... Never heard or read about Ponce's story in this way before... Edwin Sweeney in his book From Cochise to Geronimo however clearly states that Ponce (a son of the elder Ponce who died in the late 1850's), the one guiding Howard and Jeffords to Cochise in 1872, died in the late 1870's in the Victorio War... Daklugie, on the other hand, said Ponce was still living in the 1880's and claims that Ponce became his father's 'segundo'... This statement, rejected by Sweeney, could be in line with Mithlo's post above. But, I have also read that Ponce was a heavy set man (the man with the cap is not) and none of the 'known' sources mentions Ponce... I usually am on your side Mitho, but, in this case, you have not fully convinced me yet the man with the cap is "most likely" Ponce...
By the way, Chin-chi was shot and killed by American ranchers on March 8th, 1886. His body was mutilated and then burned... His death was soon avenged by the Chiricahuas. Note that this was just a few weeks before the Chiricahuas met with Crook in Canyon de los Embudos...
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Post by naiches2 on Jun 23, 2012 15:49:36 GMT -5
!!! Very interesting  |
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Post by jasper4 on Jun 25, 2012 18:19:12 GMT -5
I must say, I admire everyone's attempt to identify the man in the cap, with many good idea's, comparisons, and opinions. I appreciate Penjady's input on tradition, knowledge, and his "fine eye" for small (but important) details, right down to the red paint! Yet....I have to disagree with everyone on the mans identity. To figure out who he is....one must figure out who he IS NOT first! Only so many men were in Mexico at the time, so one should take out all the Chiricahua....all the Bedonkohe.... all the Nednai and one or two Mescalero's which leaves very few Warm Springs men at all. Of them, take out those well-known and identified in photographs and any too young or too old to be this man (mid-late 40's or so) and there you have a man....of high prestige and rank....that is I believe....most likely....PONCE!!!! He has a record here at Fort Sill listed as Bon-see , Bonsi, or Ponce along with much info about his life; Ponce was Warm Springs Apache, father unknown, mother was Nah-nelth-chithln (Blinking Her Eyes), his brothers were Sathtin (father of "Big Belle" Nicholas), and Chin-chi (father of Charles Martine Jr.), and his sister was Dolores (wife of George Noche). NOTE: After Chin-chi's death his pregnant widow Cah-gah-ahshy married Martine and when the child was born was "later" named after his step-father Charles Martine. FACT: Ponce was closely related to Cochise, said to be a nephew,....this is true....nephew "by marrage" because Ponce's wife was Cochise's neice....Naiche's cousin. She could have been a sister of Adilnadzid, but "more likely" she was a sister of Chie, young son and daughter of Cochise's brother Coyuntara. According to Ponce himself, Chie was not only his good friend but also his brother-in-law. As years went by Ponce was always closely associated to the Naiche family and relatives. FACT: It was Ponce and Chie whom guided Howard to Cochise in 1872. FACT: Ponce, along with Geronimo, Gordo and others were "arrested" by Clum at Ojo Caliente Agency (NM) in 1877, shackled, and hauled in a wagon to San Carlos Arizona. FACT: Ponce is listed time after time in Army and Agency records from 1878 to 1885. FACT: Ponce was present "in Mexico" when his brother Chin-chi was shot and killed, then dragged behind a horse through a large "plain" of cactus in 1885 or early 1886 (?). FACT: Ponce, by his own admission years later at Fort Sill ,was present at Canyon de los Embudos in early 1886, yet chose not to surrender but to fight on with Naiche, Adilnadzid and others, (his wife may have been one of the women captives being healt at Fort Bowie at that time). He claimed to have been captured by several Mexican soldiers at some point in time in 1886, which leads us to HIS story recorded at Fort Sill in 1905--------------When he was captured he was taken to Chihuahua City and put in a large cell with other captives. To his supprise....he knew most of them!!!! They were members of Mangus's band that were captured in late 1885. They had some kind of sickness among them all (Measles or perhaps Smallpox) and NOBODY wanted to "buy" them, transport them or ever go too "close" to them out of fear of this sickness. Ponce said that over half of them died there including Daklugie's two older brothers Delzhinne and Daklegon, in Chihuahua City....NOT Mexico City. Later, he and the few survivors were sent across Sonora to the Gulf of California, shipped across to Baja and sold into slavery. Ponce never saw the others again and refused to mention their names. Ponce lived in slavery many MANY years. When he did escape, he travled north a long time until he crossed out of Mexico into the U.S., southern California, then east a long time to Arizona, and at San Carlos he learned his people and many family members were at Fort Sill in Oklahoma. He walked even more....to New Mexico....then to Texas....and finally Oklahoma and Fort Sill in 1905. He did indeed find family and many old friends here, but he didn't stay with family or even with the Naiche's, he lived with Asa and Ramona and their family until his death (old age) in 1909. He is buried (under the name Bon-see) in the Beef Creek Cemetery near his mother Nah-nelth-chithln (who died in 1907 at about 95 years old). The MAN IN THE CAP.....WARM SPRINGS.....well-known WARRIOR.....highly respected LEADER..... standing proudly up front with Naiche.....Adilnadzid......Geronimo and others....in my opinion is...."most likely"........PONCE!!!!!!! Wow great premise and Yes I agree as in Ponce was Mimbreno or Warmsprings as you say but the peeps I knew whom would have been the ones to ask are gone into the spiritworld Thank You Cuz |
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