The man in the cap... mystery finally solved?

[magendavid]

Thanks. Would have never guessed that there are two "Seconds". The exciting recovery about the red coloured strap seems to be very significant. but even if we'll put that aside, it seemed odd that Laziya was preffered to Natchulbaye as a representative of the Nednhi. and if it's not Laziya, but somebody who is connected to the Chihenne, than who can it be. So the mystery keeps on...

[jeroen]

I have checked and re-checked the Fly photos and there is indeed some vague shade of a line in the image with all the men standing around Geronimo in the middle and this may indicate a red line, but it could just as easily be a minor flaw in the photograph. In the other Fly image with Atelnietze in the center, there is, in my opinion, no line visible. To conclude that the man with the cap is in fact a Chihenne, based on this, is not convincing... at least for me. Also, I don't think the cap indicates the wearer is a medicine man... In my opinion it is a war cap and they were more commonly worn in earlier times...

[kayitah]

Well, the man with the cap certainly isn't José Second, neither the brother of José First, nor the son of Choneska - by the way, the family name "Choneska" still exists among the Mescalero/Chiricahua
Sounds beautiful, does anyone know what it means?

As for the man with the war cap (I second that it's rather a war cap and not that of a medicine man. Actually, I've never heard of any type of cap that was worn exclusively by medicine men. The wearer had it made by a medicine man, though).

Laziyah, Ulzana... we don't know it, at least not yet

[penjady]

Sept 10, 2011 10:59:31 GMT -5 jeroen said:

I have checked and re-checked the Fly photos and there is indeed some vague shade of a line in the image with all the men standing around Geronimo in the middle and this may indicate a red line, but it could just as easily be a minor flaw in the photograph. In the other Fly image with Atelnietze in the center, there is, in my opinion, no line visible. To conclude that the man with the cap is in fact a Chihenne, based on this, is not convincing... at least for me. Also, I don't think the cap indicates the wearer is a medicine man... In my opinion it is a war cap and they were more commonly worn in earlier times...

In could be a minor flaw or it could be the order the photos were taken? In my initial post, I noted that the paint was visible but was not conclusive that the individual was Chihenne. So I continued looking at the other groups.

As for the cap... some consider it a medicine cap or others a war cap. It could also be a fashion statement. But this is what I know, each individual, child, adolescent, adult and elderly had a special gift. Some may call it power. Each individual in these days had this gift to care for weather, animals, plants, people, etc. It is knowledge from these elements that they spread among their people. To say that one person has more medicine than the other may be stretching it at this time. 1800's. Now, for sure we can say because only a few have these "powers, prayers, medicine".

IMO, it is a medicine cap that Jolsanny wore to protect him. On this cap, there are several designs that only the individual who made them can understand. These designs were selected to protect him. I will also say that the other apaches had other items to help protect themselves, not necessarily a cap but it may be a plant, herb, knife, jewelry, etc. The people believed in these powers of protection.

I have not seen anyone truly wear one, in my lifetime, with its true meaning and haven't seen one worn in photographs in over 50 years now. These caps are very special.

Sept 10, 2011 16:46:15 GMT -5 kayitah said:

Well, the man with the cap certainly isn't José Second, neither the brother of José First, nor the son of Choneska - by the way, the family name "Choneska" still exists among the Mescalero/Chiricahua
Sounds beautiful, does anyone know what it means?

As for the man with the war cap (I second that it's rather a war cap and not that of a medicine man. Actually, I've never heard of any type of cap that was worn exclusively by medicine men. The wearer had it made by a medicine man, though).

Laziyah, Ulzana... we don't know it, at least not yet

Jose First and Jose Second (chiri) were not siblings nor related in any way.

I was told was Honeska means but I forgot. Let me ask again.

You may be right that the cap was made for him by another individual. Or he made it himself.

As you know, I am very certain that this individual is Jolsanny. In the photos, you have Fun, Perico, Yahnosha, all said to be not only good warriors but great warriors. But yet they are behind Laziya (who may be great also but hearing stories and reading stories, Laziya may not have accomplished more that the prior individuals). It doesnt make sense. It makes sense that they defer to Chihuahua or his brother, Jolsanny. These two were notoriously known warriors, among their own people.

[kayitah]

penjady, you wrote that José First and José Second (NOT Choneska's son, the other José Second) were not related to each other. Some time ago, Siggy Second Jumper, a Chiricahua/Mescalero, stated that they were brothers and his ancestors. That leaves me a bit confused now...

To me, Ulzana (Josanie, Jolsanny) also seems the most likely fit for the warrior with the cap. I just don't think the unidentified man looks like Laziyah. Especially the nose seems much different.

Since he's standing right next to Adilnadzid and Fun, he must certainly be an important individual. And, as you have pointed out, prominent men like Yahnozha and Perico are way behind him, which leads to the assumption that he must be a highly-respected man among this group. I haven't found anything stating that Laziyah was a war captain or a leading figure in any other capacity.
Also, Ulzana was in fact Chihuahua's war captain and therefore his tactical advisor and leader on the battlefield. It would make a lot of sense if he posed with the group of warriors, which includes other men of Chihuahua's band.
I also think that Ulzana was a far more important man than we know.

The good documentation and resulting bulk of information about the Geronimo Campaign somewhat made "the one who yawns" appear as a much more significant individual than any of the other leaders, even though he wasn't heads above them in any way.
Naiché exerted more influence than most history books give him credit for, especially after the final surrender; Chihuahua & Ulzana and their band created every bit as much havoc as "Geronimo's band"; Chato remained a well-respected leader among his people until the end of his life, even though Kaywaykla and Daklugie told otherwise to Eve Ball.

[penjady]

Sept 11, 2011 15:10:49 GMT -5 kayitah said:

penjady, you wrote that José First and José Second (NOT Choneska's son, the other José Second) were not related to each other. Some time ago, Siggy Second Jumper, a Chiricahua/Mescalero, stated that they were brothers and his ancestors. That leaves me a bit confused now...

The good documentation and resulting bulk of information about the Geronimo Campaign somewhat made "the one who yawns" appear as a much more significant individual than any of the other leaders, even though he wasn't heads above them in any way.
Naiché exerted more influence than most history books give him credit for, especially after the final surrender; Chihuahua & Ulzana and their band created every bit as much havoc as "Geronimo's band"; Chato remained a well-respected leader among his people until the end of his life, even though Kaywaykla and Daklugie told otherwise to Eve Ball.

Jose 1st and Jose 2nd are not siblings or related in any fashion. They were both caught as youngsters by the Mexicans. If they were entrapped together or not, I don't know. They both came back to the Chiricahuas and later shipped off as POW's. Jose1st was married twice however he was childless. He died shortly after coming to Mescalero from Fort Sill. Jose2nd, i assume, became fluent in Mexican and served as a translator in the Chiricahua camp. I think they bonded because of the capture, not because of kinship.

I fully understand your statement that Geronimo has reached "God like" status in the world now however in 1880's, it may not be true. He was an apache with a duty to protect his people, just as the rest. There are stories of him deferring to the Band and to Naiche himself. So to say he was the captain of the ship is not true.

You are right in saying that Chihihuahua and Jolsanny created more havoc and fear than Geronimo. I believe because they surrendered first to the U.S., they weren't given the credit of renegade apaches defying the U.S. govt. Even, IMO, being more feared.

Chatto, as I have explained, was caught in the middle of the US Govt and the Apaches and was labeled. He wanted the best for the Apaches, which was peace and settlement. However he spread the word of the US Govt, who in turn lied, and Chatto lost his credibility because of the govt.

He was still respected by several other apaches after surrender but did not have the unanimous support of all the bands. Unfortunately for him, the only print he got was from the opposite opinion. It would have been awesome to read his story on his perspective. Unfortunately, that side of the story is long gone in the wind.

[Montolzh]

If I may add somethings that may or may not be relevant. These men were painted for business, IMHO; not for the benefit of Fly photo. Also, in the culture, you do not need to be a "chief" to be a war leader, usually you step up and make your statement of what you will do to your enemies, and men join behind this man who is the "war leader". Usually a medicine man would make sacred objects for you to help increase your enemies' against power. I believe that it is very well possible that the man is in fact wearing a medicine cap, because of some of the symbols that are related to GA'AN, I wish I could see the details on the crown better. Painting would have been done by a medicine man during a lengthy series of songs, it is very sacred. By the way, Choneska was a very powerful medicine man, and his powers would have been passed to any of his children after being his novice.

[kayitah]

Thank you very much, Montolzh.

I just noticed that we haven't welcomed you yet - a very warm welcome from me, it's a real pleasure and an enrichment to have a new member to these forums.

Does anyone know if Choneska was with any of the two groups (Geronimo/Naiché or Chihuahua/Ulzana, respectively) at Cañon de los Embudos?

The only book I have ever found something about him is in Sweeney's "From Cochise to Geronimo", and, unfortunately, I don't have it right here with me. Maybe someone else can check or I can do it tonight.

And, does anyone have a photograph of Choneska?

[kayitah]

I just found the following about Choneska in Sherry Robinson's "Apache Voices":

Choneska was a Chiricahua medicine man who married the Mescalero sisters Amelia and Florence, which made him Mescalero. The women's father was Yellow Flowering Weed.
Choneska was a brave warrior. He lived to be an old man... Choneska had known Geronimo before he left the Chiricahua...
Choneska may also be the warrior referred to by the agent as Ho-nes-co, one of Victorio's warriors who on 12 August 1882, came to the reservation and tried to persuade som of the young Mescalero men to go on the warpath. He was arrested and disarmed.
He died in fall of 1931, in his seventies.

The census rolls show he was born in 1852. The earlies census I could find is from 30 June 1915 and lists him, his wife Amelia b. (1878), and the following children:

Elsie (b. 1899)
Garcia (b. 1900)
Florence (b. 1902)
William (b. 1911)
Mark (b. 1914)

as well as a single woman named Madea Choneska (b. 1897)

No entry for his second wife, Florence, only for a daughter with the same name.

[josephine]

Hi Apacheros! Take it with the benefit of the inventory and sorry for my bad English

The Apache at Fort Marion, marked with the number 13 seems to have some similarity with the chief Chiricahua identified as Hosea. Note also the respective and particular position of the right leg of the two men (in the two photos taken in Fort Marion and San Carlos). Of course it is not certain, but my opinion is that Jose Second and Hosea may be the same person.

Greetings from Italy

[penjady]

Choneska was not at canyon de los embudos. He was already married into the Mescaleros.

You are right that choneska was a good medicine men. His lineage continues today. Probably something worth noting... his wifes family, imo, had even more! Very powerful people.

Hosea may be jose 1st or maybe jose2. Until we got positive identification with other photographs to compare, its only a guess.

Montolzh, nilthdagote' shi enjady junes ye' shi bedonkohe meshgalende tuiende. Nzhuu

[jeroen]

Penjady, your arguments that the man with the cap is likely a member with significant stature in the group, based on his prominent position in some of the Fly photos, are compelling and he may be Ulzana. Still, we have Bourke's statement that both he and Chihuahua did not like being photographed at the time and tried to evade being part of his images. We should not disregard his comments for Bourke was there at the time and in his book 'On the border with Crook', which deals with the Chiricahuas only superficially, he obviously found this observation worth mentioning. Also, Chihuahua himself is indeed not seen in any of the Fly photos, exept for the one taken while nobody was posing. Based on this, I think I have to agree with you to disagree on this one, I don't know (yet) who the man with the cap is, but I don't think it is Ulzana.
Also, it seems the cap is worn on top of a bandana, perhaps the man was asked by Fly to wear the cap specifically for the photographs... Fly was a brave man who was not shy to ask Geronimo and the others to pose, change positions, turn heads etc. for the best composition...
As for Geronimo's status, I agree his importance has been overstated, but I think it equally wrong to downplay his role... He was older than most other leaders and so he had been around longer. I don't think he kept out just because he liked being out and at war... it is obvious he cared very little for Mexicans and had little trouble killing his enemies but I think the main reason he continued fighting after the March 1886 meeting simply is because he could not bring himself to trust Crook, whom he disliked... he was willing to take his chances later on with a new commander, general Miles (also see his many questions to Gatewood about Miles).
Furthermore, I think it not fair that many Chiricahuas who remained on the reservation later blamed Geronimo for being deported to Florida and all subsequent suffering. It was the US government that started planning the removal of all Chiricahuas from Arizona in the fall of 1885 and it was Washington's decision to do so. The continued hostilities were just an excuse. To blame Geronimo, Naiche and their band, is, in my opinion, blaming the wrong party. As an official from the Indian Bureau once remarked following another Indian war: "If the Indians had known where most of their troubles originated, they would have attacked the White House a long time ago..."

[kayitah]

Sept 20, 2011 11:34:31 GMT -5 jeroen said:

Penjady, your arguments that the man with the cap is likely a member with significant stature in the group, based on his prominent position in some of the Fly photos, are compelling and he may be Ulzana. Still, we have Bourke's statement that both he and Chihuahua did not like being photographed at the time and tried to evade being part of his images. We should not disregard his comments for Bourke was there at the time and in his book 'On the border with Crook', which deals with the Chiricahuas only superficially, he obviously found this observation worth mentioning. Also, Chihuahua himself is indeed not seen in any of the Fly photos, exept for the one taken while nobody was posing. Based on this, I think I have to agree with you to disagree on this one, I don't know (yet) who the man with the cap is, but I don't think it is Ulzana.
Also, it seems the cap is worn on top of a bandana, perhaps the man was asked by Fly to wear the cap specifically for the photographs... Fly was a brave man who was not shy to ask Geronimo and the others to pose, change positions, turn heads etc. for the best composition...
As for Geronimo's status, I agree his importance has been overstated, but I think it equally wrong to downplay his role... He was older than most other leaders and so he had been around longer. I don't think he kept out just because he liked being out and at war... it is obvious he cared very little for Mexicans and had little trouble killing his enemies but I think the main reason he continued fighting after the March 1886 meeting simply is because he could not bring himself to trust Crook, whom he disliked... he was willing to take his chances later on with a new commander, general Miles (also see his many questions to Gatewood about Miles).
Furthermore, I think it not fair that many Chiricahuas who remained on the reservation later blamed Geronimo for being deported to Florida and all subsequent suffering. It was the US government that started planning the removal of all Chiricahuas from Arizona in the fall of 1885 and it was Washington's decision to do so. The continued hostilities were just an excuse. To blame Geronimo, Naiche and their band, is, in my opinion, blaming the wrong party. As an official from the Indian Bureau once remarked following another Indian war: "If the Indians had known where most of their troubles originated, they would have attacked the White House a long time ago..."

[/b]

I am sorry my friend, but for once I have to disagree with you.

Geronimo and Mangas made Naiché and Chihuahua fear for their life by spreading the rumor that Britton Davis and Chato had been assassinated. Otherwise, I think the whole thinkg might never have happened at all. I also don't think that, if it wasn't for Geronimo being involved in all this, Mangas wouldn't even have thought about trying to spur the other two chiefs. Huera must have had a great deal of influence in his decision making, since it doesn't seem he ever was close to Geronimo and his plans.

Also, neither of the men who Geronimo (allegedly) instructed to kill Davis and Chato were ready to give it a try, be it for the reason that some or all of them would have paid with their own life or because they felt it was the wrong thing to do. Fun, Tsisnah, and maybe Perico were lined up with the other scouts in front of Davis' tent, instructed to kill him and his first sergeant (Chato). Adilnadzid was also enlisted as a scout in the same company, but didn't show up that morning. Instead he went into Chihuahua's camp, telling him of what was going on. Chihuahua, stunned and upset with the news, took Adilnadzid and Ulzana and headed for Geronimo's camp, reputedly vowing to kill Geronimo.

In the end, Chihuahua realized that it was too late and that they were all in the same boat, and eventually let the matter rest.

As reports go, a White Mountain Apache named Nadiskay or Wodiskay told him, Mangas, and Huera that Davis would do with them what he did with Kaetennae - send them to Alcatraz. I can understand that this must have scared them seriously, but in the end it all was inflicted by a lie. Geronimo needed the men that would follow Naiché and Chihuahua, since he knew he didn't have enough influence to convince enough men to join him, especially with nothing more than some hearsay he got from a White Mountain Apache.

I don't want to say that Geronimo was a bad man, but neither can I defend his actions in this case. He for sure had his reasons to be afraid and suspicious, but so had others who stayed true to their promises.

And we don't even have to talk about the U.S. government being bogus. It always was and it still is, and I don't think it will change anytime soon. And I'm not thinking about what they're doing abroad. Much more serious is that they don't even care for their own citizens. I don't mean the middle class and better suited ones, I mean the disadvantaged, lesser privileged and minorities. They just disregard them, try to make others forget about them by not paying any attention to their needs, especially the Native Americans.

In the end, it was the government who was responsible for the deportation of the Chiricahuas to Florida. Yet I somewhat understand the blaming of Geronimo by the majority that held out on the reservation when Geronimo jumped it in spring 1885. They must have lived in uncertainty as well, and in my mind, these people deserve the utmost respect and should be honored the most - the ones that aren't even mentioned in a book.

[jeroen]

All true, fear, real or imagined was no doubt the main cause for the outbreak of 1885. But I think both Naiche and Chihuahua made the decision to leave by themselves, I don't think Geronimo really needed to convince them (I wonder he really did have that much influence with both chiefs at all)... remember it was Chihuahua who most strongly opposed Crook's policy of interfering with Apache customs and private affairs. He, like Geronimo, had gained a 'bad' reputation and both knew what Crawford and Davis, backed by Crook, would do with 'troublesome' Apache men. It is interesting to note that Geronimo himself, at Embudos, denied having sent his men to kill Chato and Davis. He said he feared being arrested and sent to prison and this was his reason to leave. And he stated that both Chihuahua and Naiche feared the same. To me, his words ring true, but I guess it remains a matter of interpretation of the facts as we know them... According to historian Ralph Ogle there were in fact orders for the arrest of Geronimo. So the rumors may have been true...

Btw, I think Josephine has a point about the similarity of no. 13 with Hosea and her conclusion that he and Jose Second may be one and the same.

As for Siggy Second Jumper's book, I have finished reading it, but it leaves much open for discussion. It is mainly a story about Siggy's search for his roots... What do others think of the book?

[kayitah]

Now that you mention that there were orders to arrest Geronimo I can see your point... I remember a documentary (I think it was "Geronimo and the Apache Resistance") where a bill of indictment concerning Geronimo was shown. Either, this paper was reproduced for the documentary, or the original still exists. This was an indictment from the civil authorities, not the army, though.

Anyway, Geronimo might have felt that anything bad would happen to him if he remained at San Carlos. But since both, Crawford and Davis, were honest men, I don't think either of them would have arrested Geronimo for no reason at all.

You're right in stating that Chihuahua opposed Crook in certain private affairs. Yet after the outbreak, Chihuahua and Geronimo never had close ties again. It seems as if Chihuahua never forgave Geronimo that he got him and his band in trouble by lying to them. As you said, Geronimo may not have had the influence to convince Naiché and Chihuahua to leave - but by making them believe that Davis and Chato had been killed by his men, Naiché and Chihuahua immediately knew themselves what might follow in case they were linked with the assassination in any way.

In the end, some highly-respected and reasonable men followed Geronimo - or Naiché, or both of them - at the time of the spring '85 outbreak; Yahnozha, Fun, Perico, and Bésh. Adilnadzid left the reservation at the same time, probably wanting to stay with his "brother" (actually his cousin), Naiché. Ahnandia joined them later. According to his own words he was fearing for his life. It seems as if the majority of his relatives had left with Geronimo, and, being a relative of Geronimo himself, he might have felt uneasy among some of the reservation Chiricahuas.

As for Hosea being José Second, I can't say I feel that way. It seems to me that the man in the Fort Marion photo has a rounder face and different features. Hard to tell, though. Flanders' picture of Hosea was made in the 1870s, while the other photo was taken in 1886. I guess it's mainly the similar clothing that makes it look like the same man.

I haven't read Siggy's book, so, unfortunately, I can't say anything about it...

Since you don't think the man with the cap is Ulzana, do you have any assumptions who he might be? It happens frequently that one's thoughts spark new ideas in the heads of others...