|
|
Post by kayitah on Mar 7, 2011 19:17:37 GMT -5
I have come to the same conclusion about this man (see also earlier discussions about this photograph), he is probably either Motsos or Kilthdigai, but I don't think the second man is Zhonne... the eyes seem different.... Nahbay perhaps? It can't be Nah-bay, as we have already identified him on the other Fort Bowie image. Both were likely made the same day. |
|
|
|
Post by jeroen on Mar 8, 2011 3:59:42 GMT -5
I know, but Nahbay is the only one who actually resembles this man a little bit... this is a tricky one...
|
|
|
|
Post by kayitah on Mar 9, 2011 18:13:14 GMT -5
it's waaayyy to quiet in here the last couple days...  so I'll post a new image... Are there more images from the Chiricahuas at Fort Bowie, prior to their departure to the railway station at Holbrook? And who was the photographer? Attachments:
|
|
|
|
Post by jeroen on Mar 13, 2011 7:33:00 GMT -5
I once read that the Fort Bowie images were actually taken by Frank Randall, that he had come up to Bowie specifically to photograph Geronimo and his band... don't recall where I read this though...
|
|
|
|
Post by kayitah on Mar 13, 2011 8:03:22 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by Second on Mar 13, 2011 13:36:29 GMT -5
Hello everyone, I just recvd an ISBN for my book and I have entered the last phase of publishing. My book is titled Second Jumper, searching for his bloodline. Written by Sigfried R. Second-Jumper.
It has taken me 5 yrs to write it. It starts out with the surrendering of the Chiricahuas and their journey to Florida as prisoners of war. While in Florida, my great grandparents were separated from the bulk of the Tribe and shipped to Cuba. An event witnessed by other prisoners, and recorded in their oral history and songs.
Also recorded and photographed by my family are my great grandparent’s arrival in Cuba, their struggles, sacrifices and accomplishments. Some of my great grandparent’s descendents began migrating to Florida, settling on the outskirts of the Florida Everglades. It was there that I discovered a Miccosukee Indian camp tucked deep in the swamps. Little did I know I was meeting the remnants of the only Unconquered Nation, The Florida Seminoles. In time I learned to master the art of breaking in horses, wrestling alligators, followed by 15 yrs of dancing and singing among them. These events were captured and will be shown with never before seen photographs.
Through their encouragement, I along with my family set out on a trip across country, in search of our long lost Apache relatives. A long journey that started in St. Augustine, FL, Oklahoma, Arizona, ended at the Mescalero Apache Reservation in NM. Upon arrival at Mescalero, I was welcomed and accepted by ex-prisoners of war, the Chiricahuas and ultimately my long lost relatives. Unaware of my past tribal history, I was inaugurated into the medicine circle as a singer for the Chiricahua Crown Dancers. It was there, that I have and continue to learn the traditional ways of the Chiricahuas. After many years of loosing members and traditions, we all decided to record and preserve our ways along with our daily activities for future generations. For the first time ever, the reader will enter into the sacred tepee of the Crown dancers and learned what takes place prior to ceremonies. All of it has been done with the consent of all members.
When the Seminoles learned that I was recording these stories, they asked me to include theirs as well. Some of these tales and photographs have been kept by members of both groups for decades as family treasures. I am honored to have been trusted to write them as they were told to me. All stories were reviewed by all participants prior to publishing to assure that they are told as they would want their great grandchildren to hear them.
Unlike many or most books written about these two groups, this one is done from within. As a result, the participants felt comfortable revealing stories long suppress by fear and mistrust. There is only half a page of references and over 300 pages of the real stories of the Tigers of the Human race, the Chiricahua Apaches and the Only Unconquered Nation, the Florida Seminoles.
I have dedicated my book to future Chiricahua and Seminole descendents but it really pertains to all humans as preserving their ancestral ways is just as important.
I will keep you all posted as soon as my book is available.
Sincerely,
Siggy Jumper
|
|
|
|
Post by jeroen on Mar 16, 2011 3:08:42 GMT -5
Cropped close up of the Apache camp at Embudos, in the middle of the group are Nahbay and Perico:  |
|
|
|
Post by kayitah on Mar 16, 2011 15:45:04 GMT -5
A new Fly image, excellent find Jeroen, thank you! I have never seen that before. Hopefully we will one day find a better image, but I agree with your identification of Perico and Nah-bay.  |
|
|
|
Post by jeroen on Mar 17, 2011 14:08:52 GMT -5
There is an account by Cosel, published in 1938, "With Geronimo on his Last Raid, the story of an Indian boy", unfortunately I don't have a copy, but in it a man, named Cosel, claims he was part of the last band led by Geronimo and Naiche as a boy. He also says he was with his father at that time (don't know who he might have been)... Does anyone have a copy?
|
|
|
|
Post by kayitah on Mar 17, 2011 15:40:18 GMT -5
There is an account by Cosel, published in 1938, "With Geronimo on his Last Raid, the story of an Indian boy", unfortunately I don't have a copy, but in it a man, named Cosel, claims he was part of the last band led by Geronimo and Naiche as a boy. He also says he was with his father at that time (don't know who he might have been)... Does anyone have a copy? I have recently ordered that book but it hasn't arrived yet. Several copies are available at abebooks. |
|
|
|
Post by jeroen on Mar 17, 2011 16:37:33 GMT -5
It will be the next one! Thanks.
Sweeney states that Ni Losh, a Chihenne, was originally a member of Mangus's band, but somehow he was also with Chihuahua's band sent to Fort Marion. Mangus himself later stated that, after splitting with Geronimo, he never rejoined the others. So, how and when did Ni Losh join with Chihuahua and Nana?
Three options I can think of:
-Ni Losh left Mangus and then somehow found and joined Nana.
- Mangus did meet the others at some point and Ni Losh decided to continue with Geronimo and Nana ( while Delzinne and Daklegon, Juh's sons went with Mangus, remember that Daklugie said that Juh's sons joined Geronimo but he sent both young men with Mangas because he had so few warriors left)
- Sweeney simply made a mistake in stating that Ni Losh was with Mangus.
What do you guys think?
|
|
|
|
Post by kayitah on Mar 17, 2011 17:29:52 GMT -5
Hmm good point, Jeroen.
I think it's possible that he eventually became tired of hiding and running and therefore may have made his way to the reservation. His family may have been there anyway, so he might have left Mangas' group and joined the other Chiricahuas who already had capitulated (Chihuahua, Ulzana, Nana).
Mangas said that he never rejoined the others - but he could very well have met them for sharing important information/observations and just for a get-together.
|
|
|
|
Post by coeurrouge on Mar 18, 2011 9:56:01 GMT -5
I don't know if Nilosh was a Chihenne, but Nachol was. Is it possible, Jeroen, that you confuse those two men?
Nachol fled with Mangas and Geronimo, entered Mexico with them and follow Mangas. He was captured at Casas Grandes on december 1885 with Juh's older sons.
|
|
|
|
Post by jeroen on Mar 18, 2011 12:02:25 GMT -5
I think it not me but Sweeney who confuses them, on page he 478 he names the men in Mangas's band, including the Chihennes Eskinolteze (also known as old Fits a Hat in Eve Ball's books), Frijole, Ni Losh and Goso. Later in the book he says only Eskinolteze and Goso remained with Mangas, the others (including a man named Nachol) were captured in december 1885. My point then, was Ni Losh really in Mangas's band, and if so, how did he end up with Chihuahua and Nana, or is it just that Sweeney made an error, confusing perhaps Ni Losh and Nachol?
|
|
|
|
Post by kayitah on Mar 23, 2011 17:57:02 GMT -5
I guess most of you already knew about the identification of Beshe on the image below. The identity of the two Chiricahuas sitting on the porch has long been unsolved. Seems to me the man with the hat is Zhonne (see train image for comparison). I have long thought the other man might be Ahnandia, but I think different now - I think this is our missing man on the train photograph - Motsos or Kilth-de-gai. I think it's the latter. No one on the train image wears a similar shirt or headband. And as it seems that neither Naiché, Geronimo, or any of the other changed clothing before being transferred to the railway station at Holbrook, I have to conclude that this is the missing individual.` What do you think? I have to apologize, I just recognized that I made a mistake. The man identified as Zhonne is someone else. It is the same man as on the small pics you see next to him. It's very likely the only man who's not present on the train image (with the exceptions of Kayitah and Martine, who aren't on the famous picture either). Jeroen pointed to this earlier in the thread - thank you Jeroen!  Attachments:
|
|
