|
|
Post by jeroen on Mar 24, 2011 11:32:45 GMT -5
I think you are right! We do have all the faces of the men that surrendered with Naiche and Geronimo then, just have to figure out who is actually who...
|
|
|
|
Post by kayitah on Mar 24, 2011 16:00:22 GMT -5
Yes, we have them all.  This morning I have been wondering how the identification of Tissnolthos was possible. Has he ever been identified by a photographer, or is there a Carlisle image of him? |
|
|
|
Post by jeroen on Mar 25, 2011 11:31:04 GMT -5
I have Tissnolthos identified in the group photo taken at Fort Houston (on the photograph itself, but I'll have to look up that particular copy) and in this image he closely resembles the man with the concho on his headband (same eyes and thin lipped mouth)... for me there is little doubt about him... Never seen a Carlisle image of him though...
|
|
|
|
Post by coeurrouge on Mar 25, 2011 13:05:14 GMT -5
For me, the man identified as Tssinolthos here was, for me, Mohtsos or Kildighai. For me Tssinolthos was this guy that you identified as Kayitah, in Fort Houston. In medal this man was identified by books and Perico (in Naiche' s subject)as Tssinolthos when he was a soldier in company I at Mount Vernon. Look the nose, the eyes, the expressions of the eyebrows, the chin; they are the same. And the man you identified as Tssinolthos seems older than 20 years old. it is just my opinion but I think I am right. also I don't find other photos of Kayitah. It Attachments:
|
|
|
|
Post by kayitah on Mar 25, 2011 15:47:59 GMT -5
For me, the man identified as Tssinolthos here was, for me, Mohtsos or Kildighai. For me Tssinolthos was this guy that you identified as Kayitah, in Fort Houston. In medal this man was identified by books and Perico (in Naiche' s subject)as Tssinolthos when he was a soldier in company I at Mount Vernon. Look the nose, the eyes, the expressions of the eyebrows, the chin; they are the same. And the man you identified as Tssinolthos seems older than 20 years old. it is just my opinion but I think I am right. also I don't find other photos of Kayitah. It I agree that both images show the same man, but I think it's Kayitah. We have other photographs of Kayitah (though as an old man) for comparison. |
|
|
|
Post by kayitah on Mar 25, 2011 15:56:25 GMT -5
I have Tissnolthos identified in the group photo taken at Fort Houston (on the photograph itself, but I'll have to look up that particular copy) and in this image he closely resembles the man with the concho on his headband (same eyes and thin lipped mouth)... for me there is little doubt about him... Never seen a Carlisle image of him though... I totally agree with you that the man identified at Tissnolthos on the train image is the same man we have identified at the Fort Sam Houston and Fly photographs. BUT how do we know that the man with the conch on his headband is named Tissnolthos? Couldn't it be Motsos or Kiltdegai? A way to identify him would be to argue that Tissnolthos was a far younger man than both Motsos and Kilthdegai. And the man with the silver conch looks the youngest to me. |
|
|
|
Post by kayitah on Mar 25, 2011 16:06:30 GMT -5
Kayitah as an old man Attachments:
|
|
|
|
Post by naiches2 on Mar 26, 2011 3:25:27 GMT -5
Good Q for all best guys and ladies!   |
|
|
|
Post by jeroen on Mar 26, 2011 4:08:28 GMT -5
I think the man with the conch is Tissnolthos, don't think Kayitah and Martine are in the train photo. In my opinion the scouts were not prsioners of war (and did not consider themselves so) but went along because they had no choice. I think, initially, they did not want to be seen as part of the band (and they would go to Marion, not to Pickens), so they may well have refused (the situation changed later on at Fort Houston). Also, the man with the conch is, in my opinion, also pictured in this image:  It is a drawing either from life or, more likely, redrawn from a photograph (still out there somewhere) of the men held at Fort Pickens. That rules out Kayitah. Naiches, thanks for the great image! |
|
|
|
Post by kayitah on Mar 26, 2011 7:41:36 GMT -5
I think the man with the conch is Tissnolthos, don't think Kayitah and Martine are in the train photo. In my opinion the scouts were not prsioners of war (and did not consider themselves so) but went along because they had no choice. I think, initially, they did not want to be seen as part of the band (and they would go to Marion, not to Pickens), so they may well have refused (the situation changed later on at Fort Houston). Also, the man with the conch is, in my opinion, also pictured in this image: It is a drawing either from life or, more likely, redrawn from a photograph (still out there somewhere) of the men held at Fort Pickens. That rules out Kayitah. Naiches, thanks for the great image! I agree that neither Kayitah nor Martine is on the train image. It's two of Tissnolthtos, Motsos, and Kilthdegai. I don't have a source at hand right now, but if I remember correctly Tissnolthtos must have been in his early to mid twenties, while the other two were in their mid thirties. |
|
|
|
Post by gregor on Mar 26, 2011 12:50:36 GMT -5
A VERY BIG THANKS to naiches2 for this very excellent "Los Embudos " picture!
благодарю!
Gregor
|
|
|
|
Post by naiches2 on Mar 26, 2011 13:00:05 GMT -5
A VERY BIG THANKS to naiches2 for this very excellent "Los Embudos " picture! благодарю! Gregor Es ist mir ein Vergnügen Naiches |
|
|
|
Post by kayitah on Mar 26, 2011 13:05:58 GMT -5
Thanks a lot Naiches! That's awesome! Could the man behind José Second/Laziyah be Adilnazid? Or the one in front of him (formerly identified as Ulzana? Natculbaye is easy to identify, unlike the other Chiricahuas. |
|
|
|
Post by naiches2 on Mar 27, 2011 15:22:16 GMT -5
One more HQ photo of the Chiricahuas. Attachments:
|
|
|
|
Post by jeroen on Mar 29, 2011 0:54:10 GMT -5
The man behind Laziyah/Jose Second could be Atelnietze, but somehow I doubt it.... here is a close up from the second photo:  |
|
This morning I have been wondering how the identification of Tissnolthos was possible. Has he ever been identified by a photographer, or is there a Carlisle image of him?
