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Post by dT on Mar 6, 2015 14:59:59 GMT -5
we have talked about this before.
THOSE days of the Apache Wars were crazy days in America. Just crazy.
It was not the fault of the Apaches - it was the time period in American history.
In those days, the small town of Tombstone, Arizona ... was not small.
It was huge ... a busy bustling place filled full of miners. And mining companies.
Also many Chinese workers. And businessmen. And prostitutes.
They were all there because of the mining boom near Tombstone.
There were many drifters, and free spirits, and outlaws. All beyond the law.
Go and read the grave stones in the town of Tombstone, preserved to this day.
People were getting shot, and robbed, and hanged - all of the time.
Yes, most of the Apache scouts were Western Apache.
But the young man Tom Horn also joined them - maybe 15 years old at that time.
He was "adopted" by Al Sieber and worked as a tracker and a scout.
Also, we know there was at least one eastern Indian, a Mohawk man, also working for the scouts.
So it was just a time when people "floated around" all over America, because the Civil War had ended and many soldiers (especially former Confederates) were looking for a new life.
dT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2015 12:55:39 GMT -5
I just aquired an original stereoview of Al Seiber and scouts taken at San Carlos by J.C. Burge around 1885.
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Post by dT on Mar 7, 2015 22:41:38 GMT -5
redpaint ... very interesting. a classic.
Al Sieber was a very fascinating character. I know little about him. But he had a reputation for being absolutely fearless ... a quality that probably served him well for that job.
dT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2015 14:20:24 GMT -5
dT
Dan Thrapp, a well known Apache historian, wrote an entire book on Sieber, "Al Sieber Chief of Scouts" It's a good read and will tell you anything you wanted to know about Sieber. He was an interesting character and nobody messed around with him. Of interesting note is Sieber's performance at the battle of Big Dry Wash.
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swa562
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Post by swa562 on Apr 14, 2015 20:57:34 GMT -5
they should of cut these traders throats. Mickey free should have been to his drunk dad or chucked off a canyon wall Who's they? Who's throat are you going to cut? Who's a trader? They fought for their country. It's called the United States of America. You see, my family lived in Arizona. We lived with the Chiricahuas. They were at war with Spain for 250 years, then with Mexico for 50 years, then with the United States of America for 25 years. That's over 300 years of killing. Geronimo was no Alter Boy, and neither were the Chiricahua Apaches. They are my cousins by tribal clan. If it wasn't for Mickey Free and Alchesay, the United States would of killed all of the Chiricahua Apaches. They were wanted for murder in the state of Arizona. If you lived their during that time your family would of been attacked even if you were an Indian. They kidnapped all people. It was part of their economy. I get a kick of people who call United States Indian Scouts "Traders"! They don't know history. They only know what they think, not the real story of the truth. They don't talk about all the thousands of people that died during the Wars of the Chiricahua. For the record, the Chiricahua was the second most costly tribe next to the Comanche Indians that costed the United States millions of dollars. The Chricahua killed priests, burn down churches, killed women and children, stole horses, cows, people, stoned people to death, expert rock throwers. Killed many military from all three countries. While others tribes were living in peace and trying to raise their families. Not everybody was into killing. In fact, Geronimo surrendered three times that I know of. But, he thought he could gain more by killing. When he surrendered he had money, horses, blankets, serapes, and Santiago Mckinn, and guns with two bullet belts per warrior. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2015 12:55:36 GMT -5
This will be interesting.
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Post by Mithlo on Apr 15, 2015 20:06:40 GMT -5
For a people hell-bent on killing every Chiricahua Man Woman and Child and STEALING EVERYTHING we had....even our lives....and doing so costing the United States "MILLIONS OF DOLLARS"......HUH!!!!!!!! What a PITY!!!!!!
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Post by dT on Apr 17, 2015 0:07:51 GMT -5
Hahahaha! I come to the defense of the Chiricahua's and I am not even an Apache.
What a world!! :-)
SWA562 - Yes, Geronimo was a tough guy. And very cunning.
He was brutal. and many people called him a THUG.
Yes he murdered many "innocent people" and he even killed babies in terrible ways.
all this is TRUE.
In his day - white people thought about Geronimo ... the way that people think about Bin Laden.
They saw him as a "terrorist".
ALL TRUE.
But the Apache Wars were ugly on all sides.
Who stopped the white bounty hunters who killed Apache women and children? No-one.
Who stopped the Mexicans from getting Apaches drunk and them murdering them in large numbers.
No-one.
In those days - the white men didn't even think of "bad Apaches" as being human.
And it's doubtful that they thought about ANY Apache as being "good" at all.
Read the book by Lt. Davis ... "The Truth About Geronimo".
He says quite clearly ... the Apache renegades were hunted like mad dogs.
Nothing more or less.
That's it.
The Apache Wars were very ugly wars. No mercy asked for, no quarter given.
How did a lot of this get started? Because a huge bunch of miners invaded Tombstone & Tucson, and started mining the ground. and they went right through Apache country, cutting down trees as they went. It was land invasion, right from the start. And nobody told them to stop. Arizona was just a Territory then, and it attracted all the people from White Society who didn't fit in. So there were plenty of people with greed and selfishness, there were a lot of "free spirits", there were tons of outcasts, and a fair share of genuine outlaws. All these people crossed over Apache land. So when you think about it - the situation was a powder keg right from the start.
Also, that idiot Lt. Bascombe tried to trap Cochise, while trying to resolve the issue where Mickey Free got stolen as a baby. But Cochise didn't do that crime. And then Bascombe and the US Army hung Cochise's brother (or nephew?) and a bunch of other Apaches from trees. REALLY STUPID STUFF. That's how the wars got started. You can't blame the Chiricahua's for defending their land and their rights.
What else could they do?
YES, Geronimo did a ton of ugly stuff. BUT a ton of ugly stuff was also done ... to the Chiricahua's. The Chiricahua's just didn't put up with B.S., that's all.
There NEVER was any respect or understanding for the Apaches.
Things went bad very quickly, and they just got worse and worse.
That was the Apache Wars.
dT
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Post by chicheman on Apr 20, 2015 15:38:32 GMT -5
Well said by Mithlo and dt. There were so many bad fairy tales told about the so called cruel Apaches and about certain
persons like Geronimo and others. Often without Facts. Geronimo could have been hundreds of miles away, he would have been blamed for things anyway. And it was never a cultural Feature of leading war against women and children,meaning to killing them, this was the exception rather than the rule. Studying history, and listening to the voices of the Nde People, their stories that were written down, we´re becoming Aware that the Chiricahua did just fight for their land and their very survival.
chicheman
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Post by jasper4 on May 16, 2015 14:52:37 GMT -5
For a people hell-bent on killing every Chiricahua Man Woman and Child and STEALING EVERYTHING we had....even our lives....and doing so costing the United States "MILLIONS OF DOLLARS"......HUH!!!!!!!! What a PITY!!!!!! I know this of the 7 tribes of the apache many did not care for each other. As the Scots with their clans yet they all hated the english. Point being I have a been in many for the better term debates on the right or wrong of the apache wars. Yet some wanted peace very true. While other cling to the old ways or Freedom of sorts. Hell dying aint hard it is the living in a world which at the time made no sense. Many bad things happen in war. Yet the few who held out cost the many of the Nde 27 years as POW. We has known WAR and gave no quarter nor asked for any. Again my words are a mere shadow of my Cuz. |
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Post by jasper4 on May 16, 2015 14:59:08 GMT -5
they should of cut these traders throats. Mickey free should have been to his drunk dad or chucked off a canyon wall Who's they? Who's throat are you going to cut? Who's a trader? They fought for their country. It's called the United States of America. You see, my family lived in Arizona. We lived with the Chiricahuas. They were at war with Spain for 250 years, then with Mexico for 50 years, then with the United States of America for 25 years. That's over 300 years of killing. Geronimo was no Alter Boy, and neither were the Chiricahua Apaches. They are my cousins by tribal clan. If it wasn't for Mickey Free and Alchesay, the United States would of killed all of the Chiricahua Apaches. They were wanted for murder in the state of Arizona. If you lived their during that time your family would of been attacked even if you were an Indian. They kidnapped all people. It was part of their economy. I get a kick of people who call United States Indian Scouts "Traders"! They don't know history. They only know what they think, not the real story of the truth. They don't talk about all the thousands of people that died during the Wars of the Chiricahua. For the record, the Chiricahua was the second most costly tribe next to the Comanche Indians that costed the United States millions of dollars. The Chricahua killed priests, burn down churches, killed women and children, stole horses, cows, people, stoned people to death, expert rock throwers. Killed many military from all three countries. While others tribes were living in peace and trying to raise their families. Not everybody was into killing. In fact, Geronimo surrendered three times that I know of. But, he thought he could gain more by killing. When he surrendered he had money, horses, blankets, serapes, and Santiago Mckinn, and guns with two bullet belts per warrior. Your words carry Iron for many to see, yet I agree that the scouts were not traitors. I have been on this earth nearly 70 winters and love my life for I know I am from a people whose tragic history is but a mere sidenote for some. I say this that history is important in that those whom dont learn from it are doomed to repeat the errors of it. |
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Post by cinemo on Jun 13, 2015 6:11:45 GMT -5
Origin and skills of the Apache scouts
The traditional Apache scouts were members of secret societies within various clans of the tribe. Only Lipan, Chiricahua and Mescalero Apaches had Scout societies. The scouts' original purpose was to protect the clans people from enemies, and to locate game and new campsites.
The Scouts trained their own clansmen in an intense process that lasted over some years! Young children within the clan would be closely observed by current Scouts and elders. Those who showed promise in skills- such as awareness, tracking and hunting, physical fitness, and selflessness- would be selected to undergo the training process.
As we know, in the second half of the 19th century, many Apaches scouted for the US – army. The majority of these scouts possessed great skills.
US Army Captain John G. Bourke described the Apache scouts on the campaign in pursuit of Chiricahua Apaches in 1883:
“He does not read the newspapers, but the great book of nature is open to his perusal, and has been drained of much knowledge which his pale-faced brother would be glad to acquire. Every track in the trail, mark in the grass, scratch on the bark of a tree, explains itself to the untutored Apache. He can tell to an hour, almost, when the man or animal making them passed by, and, like a hound, will keep on the scent until he catches up with the object of his pursuit.
In the presence of strangers the Apache soldier is sedate and taciturn. Seated around his little apology for a camp-fire, in the communion of his fellows, he becomes vivacious and conversational. He is obedient to authority, but will not brook the restraints which, under our notions of discipline, change men into machines. He makes an excellent sentinel, and not a single instance can be adduced of property having been stolen from or by an Apache on guard.”
Regarding their scouting skills, for an example, we have an incident of 1907 : The murder of Laura Morris and her four year old daughter
In January of 1907, Laura Morris and her daughter were brutally murdered with a knife near Roosevelt Dam . Arizona Ranger Jim Holmes was notified, and he called on Al Sieber to help. Two Apaches who had been scouts with Sieber, a man named "Rabbit" and another named "Yesterday," were called on to assist. As it had recently rained a lot, the scouts were able to follow the killer's footprints until they came to a pool of water near the river, where the killer had washed his hands. They noticed in the pool someone had dragged his right foot a little. Knowing scouting lore, they knew that the killer must have thrown something from that point, because when a man throws something he tends to drag his right foot. They then threw some rocks in the same direction as the man's footprints. When they inspected where they fell, they found the original murder weapon. They knew that the knife belonged to William Baldwin, and so he was quickly arrested.
cinemo
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Post by Dietmar on May 12, 2016 10:23:14 GMT -5
I may be wrong, but I think I haven´t seen a picture of Dandy Bill on our site:  Dandy Bill, "The Apache Scout", photo by Daniel Markey |
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Post by Terrill Goseyun on Oct 11, 2016 21:01:37 GMT -5
Hello,
I am the descendent of Apache Scout; Allen Goseyun, also known by Hosayon, Cusceon, Consision, Goseyun if you come across any photos with that name please let me know. tgoseyunapacheart@yahoo.com
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Great Grandson of Alchesay
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Post by Great Grandson of Alchesay on Oct 19, 2016 18:32:02 GMT -5
Hi I am Great Grandson to Chief Alchesay. My Grandmother is Belle daughter of Alchesay an WATERS (a.k.a Barbra Slater)
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