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Post by perico on May 13, 2010 8:44:16 GMT -5
Lawrence Mithlo with others at Fort Sill:  Lawrence Mithlo is standing fourth from left, Watson Mithlo in front row far right (just behind Dan Nicholas (lower right). Where did this picture come from? There are several versions of it. |
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Post by naiches2 on May 13, 2010 9:18:55 GMT -5
I know alot of things, don't hesitate to ask. OK! Who is Tooisgah? Who is Colle? Binday? Negoltisin? And why Old Coonie took two orphants Johlsanny (Ulzana) children - Richard and Samuel?  And as the name of this mystical person???  |
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Post by jeroen on May 13, 2010 10:08:09 GMT -5
Perico, I got this scan from a friend years ago... however you can also find it in "Survival of the spirit; Chiricahua Apaches in captivity" by Henrietta Stockel, p.213...
In the Geronimo thread we could not come to the identification of the warrior in the picture posted above by Naiches, hopefully you can help us with this one...
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Post by perico on May 13, 2010 14:46:36 GMT -5
The man in white Ive been trying to identify for along time. Ive seen him identified as Tissnolthtos but I havent done a comparison. Tooisgah - Warm Springs Apache. Brother of Cailis In 1913 went to Mescalero as a widow. Colle - Warm Springs Apache. Colle was killed on 23 June 1894 while on furlough from Company “I”, 12 US Infantry, near Mount Vernon Barracks, Alabama. Binday - Brother of Lot Eyelash. Part Chiricahua, Part Warm Springs. Negoltisin - not sure who this person is yet. Hope that helps. Perico, I got this scan from a friend years ago... however you can also find it in "Survival of the spirit; Chiricahua Apaches in captivity" by Henrietta Stockel, p.213... In the Geronimo thread we could not come to the identification of the warrior in the picture posted above by Naiches, hopefully you can help us with this one... |
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Post by naiches2 on May 13, 2010 14:54:35 GMT -5
A lot of thanks, Perico.
Say, please, which group has moved Tsisnah to Florida if it was not with Chihuahua, nor with Geronimo? Maybe you have a list of people from San Carlos.
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Post by perico on May 13, 2010 20:01:07 GMT -5
Dont have a list, but he wasnt with Chihuahuas group, wasnt with Mangus group, wasnt with Naiche/Geronimo group. Most likely he was with the San Carlos group. A lot of thanks, Perico. Say, please, which group has moved Tsisnah to Florida if it was not with Chihuahua, nor with Geronimo? Maybe you have a list of people from San Carlos. |
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Post by jeroen on May 14, 2010 3:09:35 GMT -5
It is just a guess, but the unidentified man in white that we are looking for, could he be Cathle, also spelled Kutli? According to my information he was a Chokonen and a prominent warrior in Naiche's band. Also, Charles Lummis, in General Crook and the Apache wars, writes that he was one of the leaders that took part in the negotiations with Crook in March 1886. He does take a prominent place in this Fly image, and is clearly visible in others as well. It is pure speculation of course...
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Post by naiches2 on May 14, 2010 3:54:10 GMT -5
It is just a guess, but the unidentified man in white that we are looking for, could he be Cathle, also spelled Kutli? According to my information he was a Chokonen and a prominent warrior in Naiche's band. Also, Charles Lummis, in General Crook and the Apache wars, writes that he was one of the leaders that took part in the negotiations with Crook in March 1886. He does take a prominent place in this Fly image, and is clearly visible in others as well. It is pure speculation of course... Nice version Jeroen, this Kutli disappeared from sight after the canyon de Los Embudos. And he mentions Bourke in describing the negotiations (On the Border with Crook, p 478). |
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Post by naiches2 on May 15, 2010 2:25:05 GMT -5
Dont have a list, but he wasnt with Chihuahuas group, wasnt with Mangus group, wasnt with Naiche/Geronimo group. Most likely he was with the San Carlos group. This is very strange ... Tsisnah exactly was photographed in Los Embudos. All participants in these negotiations in the end proved to be either in Florida or in the Old Mexico. How Tsisnah was in another place? |
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Post by jeroen on May 15, 2010 11:50:32 GMT -5
Yes I agree. I did find a list of names of the men with Chihuahua, but this one is not very reliable, for it includes names of people that arrived later, like Beshe and Natchez (either Naiche or Noche, but both sent to Florida later on), there is, however, also a Tanzea, and this may be Tsisnah, as being among the first Chiricahuas to be incarcerated in Florida.
Generally speaking, many of the long accepted information regarding the names and numbers simply does not add up... for instance, I reread Gatewood's memoirs and he states clearly that three warriors and three women with Geronimo and Naiche at the very last minute refused to surrender at Fort Bowie and fled back to Mexico. Likewise, Naiche was reported mourning for "a lost brother"... who is this lost brother, a cousin perhaps?
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Post by jeroen on May 16, 2010 6:00:17 GMT -5
I got my copy of "Chief Loco: Apache peacemaker" by Bud Shapard yesterday... It contains very few new images, but a better quality picture of the Chiricahua leaders at Mount Vernon posted earlier in very poor quality:  |
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Post by perico on May 17, 2010 14:13:48 GMT -5
Im thinking that Tsisnah had to have come in with Loco and the group that went in after Chihuahua's group. Tsisnah isnt mentioned as beinging in Naiches group, and there were only 3 men with Mangus' group. With Mangus was himself, and Fit A Hat (a Mescalero who died in route to Florida) and Goso. No one in Chihuahuas group resembles Tsisnah, so it makes it puzzling. That list of Chihuahua's group is definately inaccurate. Can anyone spot Dorothy Naiche in that group picture at Fort Marion?
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Post by perico on May 17, 2010 14:14:56 GMT -5
A lot of thanks, Perico. Say, please, which group has moved Tsisnah to Florida if it was not with Chihuahua, nor with Geronimo? Maybe you have a list of people from San Carlos. I have heard a list exists but I dont have it. |
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Post by perico on May 17, 2010 14:16:13 GMT -5
And as the name of this mystical person??? [/quote] My opinion was this man may have been Jozhe, the other brother to Fun, Tsisnah and Perico, but that is also just a guess. |
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Post by kayitah on May 18, 2010 1:02:37 GMT -5
I've seen him identified as "Hustianney", which - pronounced the right way - may be the same as "Hosteen Nez". Honestly, I've never heard of a Chiricahua of any importance named Hustianney or Hosteen Nez. Hosteen, I guess, would probably be applied only to an older man, not such a young one.
I like your idea of Jozhe. I know I have a book where there's an image of Benedict Jozhe, but will have to search through my newer titles. Unfortunately I can't do that now, as I'm on vacation.
If anyone has one of the following titles, you may check them for an image of Jozhe:
Author: Johze, Benedict
Title: The Fort Sill Apache" In Chronicles Of Oklahoma, V
Author: Turcheneske, John Anthony Jr
Title: The Chiricahua Apache Prisoners of War, Fort Still
Author: Louis Kraft
Title: Gatewood and Geronimo
Author: Sonnichsen, C. L. (editor)
Title: GERONIMO AND THE END OF THE APACHE WARS
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