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Post by jeroen on Mar 18, 2010 2:38:27 GMT -5
Sorry my friend, I am not convinced, I think we have to agree that we disagree on this one...
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Post by jeroen on Mar 18, 2010 2:41:01 GMT -5
Naiche during Mount Vernon Alabama years:  |
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Post by naiches2 on Mar 19, 2010 7:12:27 GMT -5
General Stanley's report is quoted in Angie Debo's book on Geronimo and Yanosha is estimated to be about 32 years in october 1886, that would make his year of birth 1854, or about the same age as Naiche. Also, Debo adds in brackets that he was closely related to Naiche... My guess is that they were cousins and in Apache culture that would mean they were as close as brothers. Anyway, he survived well into the 1950's... are there any photographs of Yanosha in old age? Here is Yanosha at Fort Sill  |
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Post by naiches2 on Mar 19, 2010 8:30:22 GMT -5
Yes, man in hat is Fun. Man standing left from Geronimo is Tissnolthos (IMHO). Here another shot from Fort Sam Houston. From left: Unknown, Chappo, Ahnandia, Zhonne, Hunlona Anton, my friend, how do you know the man standing next to Geronimo is Tissnolthos? Do you have any photographs for reference? I have the following photographs of Tissnolthos: Kayitah, man on photo from 'Victorio' by E.Ball, IMHO, too young. May be this man is son of original Tissnolthos  |
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Post by jeroen on Mar 27, 2010 2:33:50 GMT -5
Naiche at Fort Houston:  I am not sure about the other warrior, probably Fun... |
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Post by jeroen on Mar 30, 2010 1:29:20 GMT -5
I recall we had some discussion regarding the individual members of the Naiche/Geronimo band in the Fly photos, including a warrior called Tsisnah. For comparison this picture taken of Tsisnah at Carlisle:  |
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Post by jeroen on Mar 30, 2010 1:30:21 GMT -5
And a portrait of Zhonne, also at Carlisle:  |
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Post by charlie on Mar 30, 2010 7:30:24 GMT -5
Jeroen and Naiches2: great thread! Wonderful images! Thanks to you.
And now, we can easily to identify Tsisnah in the 1886 Canyon of Los Embudos photos...
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Post by naiches2 on Mar 30, 2010 15:36:57 GMT -5
 Thanks for Thanks charlie ! Sorry, I don't know in what group of prisoners Tsisnah was sent to Florida (may be with San Carlos group(?) because His name is not on the list of Geronimo-Naiche's band by Stanley (A.Debo, Geronimo, pp.304-306), and He does not look like anyone of the men photographed by train in Texas. And in all likelihood it is not among the warriors of Chihuahua. It's very strange...
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Post by kayitah on Apr 2, 2010 12:43:27 GMT -5
I think the one who is standing in front of the tent with Naiché may be Zhonne - or one of the mysterious two warriors named Motsos and Kilthdigai...
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Post by Dietmar on Apr 11, 2010 5:14:44 GMT -5
Charlie asked me to post these photographs:  Tsisnah  Tsisnah is the man at far left (the man with the red shot is Ulzana) |
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Post by jeroen on Apr 12, 2010 8:01:55 GMT -5
I think we can conclude now there is little doubt about the identification of Tsisnah in the Fly images... Hopefully we will get more positive id's this way...
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Post by charlie on Apr 14, 2010 8:09:35 GMT -5
* FUN: born in 1866 - "Bedonkohe" band - Chiricahua subdivision. Indian name: YAHE CHUL (Smoke that exits) Father: NAS-TIH-DEH - Mother: BONITA (Geronimo's cousin) Brothers: TSISNAH - PERICO - EYELASH Died suicide in 1892. He was the best warrior of Geronimo's band. * TSISNAH: born in 1864 - "Bebonkohe" band - Chiricahua subdivision Wife: Lozah He was at Carlisle school for 3 years. Died in 1900. Great warrior. * YANOZHA: born in 1860 - "Tsoka-ne-nde" (or "Chockonen") band - Chiricahua subdivision He was cousin of Naiche (Cochise's son) and brother in law of Geronimo, that married his sister Shegha. Wife: Tsikahda (sister of chief Loco) - Died in 1954 - Great warrior. * KAYTAH: born in 1856 - "Nedhni" band - Chiricahua subdivision Cousin of Yanozha. In 1866 he became an Army scout. Died in 15 February 1934 at Fort Sill. He was the best warrior of Juh's band.  This is the only image of Kaytah that I know. Are there other images of him? Can anyone to add other info about these important warriors? Can anyone to add bio-info about: NAHBAY - PERICO - MARTINE - ZHONNE ? Thanks to all. |
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Post by jeroen on Apr 19, 2010 3:14:56 GMT -5
I have to check my files, got info on all the warriors, but have to look it up. Meanwhile, a picture of Perico and his family at Fort Sill. Far left is Naiche?  Perico, also known as White Horse, born ca. 1852, half brother to Fun and Tsisnah. It is said he also was a half brother to Laziyah, which would also relate him to Beshe. He was a first cousin of Daklugie and second cousin of Geronimo (not a half brother). He was related also to E clah heh, a wife of Naiche. |
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Post by shan on Apr 19, 2010 3:59:57 GMT -5
Charlie,
I'm sorry but I can't really see the similarity between the two versions of Tsisnay that Dietmar posted for you.
In my opinion the man I have always taken to be Ulzana in the various photographs we have seen of him, does not have those rather pronouced cheek pouchs and the slightly swollen look to the flesh above the upper lip that the man in the suit displays. Do we know how many other Photographs these two men appaer in?
While I may be wrong---I know how different some people can look in different photographs---for the moment we will have to disagree on this one.
Graham, once again we are i agreement, the man in the photo you posted does indeed have a look of KIcking Bear.
Low Dog
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Thanks for Thanks charlie !
