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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 18, 2021 7:23:01 GMT -5
Thank you very much to Naiche2 for the link. These are the acts of birth of Naiche's children since Mount Vernon. 5 were unknown and Christian Jr was seen as a female in 1889 ?? |
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 18, 2021 14:44:33 GMT -5
the one of Jane Attachments:
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Post by saskia21 on Aug 21, 2021 13:24:01 GMT -5
I did see that but my interest lies more with genealogy of the Chiricahua, so family ties. Also the lives of the women. Glad to have been of help 😊, I believe in sharing links and information to help other people interested in the Apache people.
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 22, 2021 5:48:30 GMT -5
I did see that but my interest lies more with genealogy of the Chiricahua, so family ties. Also the lives of the women. Glad to have been of help 😊, I believe in sharing links and information to help other people interested in the Apache people. As I am because familiy ties explain most of the Chiricahua's History. As i understand, census of the reservation since Ojo Caliente, will help but I think the census were in Record Group 393 of the NARA, not yet digitized....  |
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 23, 2021 8:06:05 GMT -5
I find this. A woman named Nantey (Zhante?) and born between 1850 and 1855. San Carlos census 1901 and 1902; Attachments:
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 23, 2021 9:31:33 GMT -5
If Nantey = Zhante, Galson was a younger brother of Naiche? from census 1897 to 1900 |
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 24, 2021 7:16:25 GMT -5
Another brother of Naiche? I have doubts but I remember a story said by Bylas. In his testimony of the slaughter in the Stevens' ranch in April 1882, Bylas said Naiche avoided loudly the killing of the White Mountains by ordering his brother to shoot Geronimo if he order the killing. I thought his brother were in fact Atelnietze, his cousin (in Apache's language alos called brother), Kay-dhazinne his brother-in-lax and Nadhozinne who I thought he was a brother-in-law. But I change my mind. Nadhozinne was not a brother-in-law and in Apache's language, brother-in-law was another word than brother. So it is possible that Dejokaydey and Galson were younger half-brother of Naiche, disappearing before 1900 if Nantey was Zhante and her mother was Gessimeday, I think (and it is juts my idea) : After Galeana's massacre in july 1846 where Cochise seemed to have lost a woife and children that he married Gessimeday (born c.1830) about 1848(certainly Nahilzay's sister). Gessimeday and Nahilzay were possibly Miguel Narbona's children and then Cochise became the "subchief" of Miguel Narbona Cochise and Gessimeday could have 4 children at least. born c.1850 a daughter Zhante or Nantey born c.1857 a son Dejokaydey born c.1860 a son Galson born c.1862 a daughter Jas-tassey or Nastassey I think the brothers married in the coyotero's band and when the Chiricahuas were removed in september 1886, the mother and sisters joined them mayb as widows of Chokonen warriors's killed during the 1881-1883's fights I do not find prevoius of 1892 Nantey, her son Gojee and her brother Dejokaydey and Galson.I will continue to look for. |
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 25, 2021 16:32:21 GMT -5
May just have found the link to proof you are right: In the 1912 census San Carlos :https://archive.org/details/indiancensusroll464unit/page/n721/mode/1up?view=theater Tahdntudn = Tah do tonn? Husband 45 (Born cir 1867) so not Howetdetsoan he is probablly a son of Jas tassey) Coase wife 46 ( born cir 1866) Gasemiyeda = Gessemida? 76 grand mother( Born cir 1836) Zanyego = Zhante? 61 mother (Born cir 1851) On ancestry I have found them in the following census: 1907 Tudntudn lives with his grand mother and is single 1909 - 1912 the four of them live together. I may have also found Chihuahua sister Na ya di nilth in the 1909 census : Na na tla telth widow age 73 ( born cir 1836 which would be sbout the right age, same page as Tudntudn and family where on in 1909) Will have to look into this a bit more. I think you are right about gessemida = gasemiyeda. Because in 1904 census Gemessida was in San Carlos Apache band n°H, family 16 as Tahdntudn in 1912 census |
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 26, 2021 2:48:22 GMT -5
after reflexion, I conclude that Nantey was not Zhante and so Dejokaydey and Galson were not half-brother of Naiche.
We saw Gessemida and Nastasay lived together before 1900, Gessemida lived band H of the San Carlos Apache, as family n°16 in 1904 AND 1905 like Tahndtudn in 1906 as single and 1912 they were alltoghter as Grandson and grandmother in Band H family n°16 with Zanyego as mother.
this why I am quite sure Nastasay was Jastessay (born c.1860), Tahndtudn was Tah-do-tonn (born c.1870) and Zanyego was Zhante (born c.1850). The mother of Jastessay and Zhante was Gessemiday (born c.1830) or Gaseyemuda, certainly the second wife of Cochise and Nahilzay's sister. Jastessay seemed to have died in 1906.
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 26, 2021 9:54:26 GMT -5
Beas Ketla is definately Jim Curly, in the 1893 census he is living with his brother and he is named curly (p 70 1893 census: archive.org/details/indiancensusroll462unit/page/n69/mode/1up?view=theaterin the 1894- 1897 he is called Beasketla ( 1894 census 174: archive.org/details/indiancensusroll462unit/page/n173/mode/1up?view=theater)As to Gessemida beeing a possible sister of Nahilzay and married to Cochise i dont know. I remember reading somewhere that Nahilzay's sisters name was Nahlekadeya and she was the one married to Cochise. But i can't remember where I got that info from. May be he married sisters? I have found Gessemida/Gessemuda/ Gessemeede, born cir 1839 sporadically in de census records in 1898, 1900, 1904, 1905 she is living with her grandson Howdetsoan/Hometdoan/ Howetason born cir 1880. But after 1905 I can't find either one again. As to Nastasay beeing Jas tassy it is possible but i haven't been able to establish the link or found conclusive proof she is the right person. In 1907 census (page 218 n°39), Jim Curly was named again Baskeetlan (english name Kelly?) and Nastasay became Djaistaze. In 1906 Jim Curley and Nastasay were in the same Coyotero band (J) at the same number n°39. Djaistaze seems more similar to Jastassey than Nastasay so I conclud définitvly that Nastasay=Djaistaze=Jas-tessy = sister of Naiche. Tah-de-tonn lived with his mother, his grandmother in San Carlos Apache band H (Arivapai or Pinal)led by Eskenapas, born c.1820. Tah-de-tonn married Coashay in 1907 or 1908. In 1906, Coashey was a widow in the Coyotero Apache band J (Eastern White Mountain) led by Nosey, bron c.1835. Jas-tessy was stil alive in 1912 with her husband, who change of nickname to take Kelly,living in Coyotero Apahce band J led by Nosey. The grandmother Gemessiday lived with Tah-de-tonn in 1907. I have to find ZHante in census before 1908 and Gessemida in 1906's census. |
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 27, 2021 8:55:27 GMT -5
3.3. “Tall Chief” Crawford.
I think Naiche was sincere when he said he would come back San Carlos two months later after Crook left the Sierra Madre. But the reluctance, at least, of Goyakla to return in the reservation and events that happened successively delayed the return for more several months. Goyakla, surely upset to have lost the main leadership he never had, used or provoked these events to convince his fellows to stay in Mexico. Playing for time, he certainly thought that disappointed Chiricahuas about Crook and his men would escape San Carlos because of betrayals. And these Chiricahuas would convince their kinfolks stayed in Mexico to not surrender and his leadership would be renewed.
First, with reason, he convinced Naiche and others they needed mounts to return in USA and to have some in San Carlos because, it was very hard to have new mounts in the reservation. The Chokonens and Pedes-klinje, having lost most of their herd during the 15th of May attack, had to get some. I think the Chiricahuas splitted in three groups just after separated from Crook, beginning of June. About twenty warriors, led by Kaathenay and Zele, returned in Bugatseka with the women and children. Goyakla and Pedes-klinje launched a raid near Nacori Chico with twenty warriors while the Chokonens did their raid near Bavispe twice.
About 22nd of June, the raiders joined their people at Bugatseka with enough mounts, ready to go north. But they have to wait the end of the summer rains which prevented travels at this time. Soon after Tandinbilnojui, his family and his few followers joined them. The chiefs swore again to come back to San Carlos, even Tandinbilnojui. This renew of their promise was maybe a wish of Naiche and Kla-esch to ensure no chief played a trick to scuttle Nantan Lupan’s peace. Goyakla and Tandinbilnojui convinced the other chiefs to make one last attempt to obtain the release of their relatives in captivity in Chihuahua. It would mean negociations in Casas Grandes. I think Naiche was reluctant to do that because he feared another deadly trap and it would delay for two months again the return.
But his close friend Pedes-klinje, second as a leader, very worried about the destiny of his wife and his two children, wanted much to try this release. With men like Goyakla, Tandinbilnojui, Kaathenay and Kla-esch not very hurry to live in a reservation, Naiche was isolated on his idea to go north. So I think he joined the plan of Tandinbilnojui. I think it was not by random that Tandinbilnojui arrived just after the two raids made in June. His old comrad, Goyakla, called for him maybe by Djelikine, not only to inform Tandinbilnojui of the previous events but also to have a strong ally to delay again the promise made to Nantan Lupan.
After the rains stopped, needing stock, supplies and also goods to trade, they raided again in mid-July. I think, forty-five to fifty warriors participated while under Tandinbilnojui and Zele, ten to fifteen warriors stayed at Bugatseka.The raiders divided in two, the Chokonens going northwest near Fronteras under Naiche and Kla-esch. The others, about thirty, Bedonkohes, Nednhis and some Chihennes followed Goyakla, Pedes-klinje and Kaathenay. The goal of the Chokonens was cattle. They stole one hundred and fifty heads and certainly killed some people. In their return to Bugatseka, they reunited with the other raiders and decided to attack Nacori Chico.
21st of July, they would attack. Early in the morning it failed. Spotted by a farmer, the warriors engaged the fight but without success and sporadic shots were exchanged during the morning. Misunderstanding a four civilians’ charge for reinforcement, the warriors retreated. And during the retreat Djelikine was killed by a bullet in the head. The coming to Casas Grandes had to wait because the death of Djelikine had to be revenge by his son-in-law, Goyakla. While he separated with fifteen followers, mostly Nednhis, to avenge his father-in-law’s death, Naiche and the others came back in Bugatseka, waiting the return of Goyakla.
To open negotiations in Casas Grandes, they needed Goyakla, the most able of them. Tandinbilnojui was no more capable to lead people or to represent them. Alcoholic, he was in desperation since the death of Ishton and lost totally the confidence of Naiche and the other chiefs. About 10th of August Goyakla returned, the revenge accomplished. In the same time, his principal spouse surprisingly and happily appeared. Captured in January 1883 by Chihuahua’s soldiers during the attack at el Cacasda Del Rio Satachi, Chee-hash-kish was put in jail in Chihuahua City.
Her girl separated from her was given to a family in the city. One time, beginning of July, she was allowed to quit the jail for several days to see her daughter. Saising the opportuny, she escaped and after forty days, alone, of walking, hiding and eating whatever she could, she found her husband and the others. She taught that thirty-five men and mainly women were alived in the jail. Naiche’s relatives were certainly among them. This news motivated everybody to make the attempt, especially Pedes-klinje, and to negociate the release with the Chihuahuans. Zele and his men left before the whole camp moved, to raid and to obtain mounts as the others.
In the same time, time was not the same perception for Crook and his men than for the natives. The general was under criticism because the Chiricahuas in Mexico seemed to have lure Crook by their promises. Captain Crawford after the agreement of Crook and talkings with Mangas, Yo-tah-ah (Bénito) and Jlin-tay-i-tith, initiated an original plan. He sent three Chiricahua’s men in mission in the country of their hatred enemies and only them. It was the first time the US Army used, alone, Chiricahuas in a diplomacy way. The three men were Yo-tah-ah, Fatty and Pet-zhan. Yo-tah-ah was respected by all the Chiricahuas, trusted by Kla-esch and Naiche and was a friend of Pedes-klinje. Fatty was a great Nedni warrior and had a relationship with Zele. Pet-zhan was a mighty Chihenne’s warrior of Kas-tziden, knowing well Kaathenay.
The Chiricahuas in Mexico moved and camped, twelve miles southwest of Casas Grandes, in a place called Piedras Verde. It was the last foothills before the plain near Casas Grandes. They sent two women, 30th of August, to open negotiations. They came back with an officer and his soldiers. Tandinbilnojui explained they wanted a reservation there to live, a faulse motivation obviously. Few days after some Chiricahuas entered Casas Grandes to trade. Tandinbilnojui asked and obtained a formal pass for trading and trades were made.
The Chiricahuas were vigilant, fearing a deadly trap and put sentries above their ranchéria, certainly. They were right, the Chihuahuans used the negotiations’ time to concentrate troops in the schedule to exterminate these Apaches. It is clear that Naiche was very uncomfortable there. Apparently most of the trade was made between 1st and 12th of September. The Mexicans sold and mainly gave a lot of mescal and whiskey. They were more nervous when Zele, joining, informed them that he saw mocassins tracks at Bugasetka, maybe Apache US scouts.
12th of September, Lieutenant-Colonel Gonzalez met Naiche and the other chiefs, few miles near Casas Grandes. The chiefs expressed their real motivation, the release of their relatives and prisonners in Chihuahua City. Gonzalez invited the chiefs to move nearby their camp but Naiche refused saying clearly he had no confidence of the Mexicans. During these day, the behavior of Tandinbilnojui was pitiful and shameful. He drunk more and more, nearly enable to mount and to ride his horse.
20th September, another meeting stood near Casas Grandes. Gonzalez playing for time, promised to release the prisoners when the Chiricahuas would make a treaty and began to work as farmers. In the evening, the chiefs and their escort returned to their camp. During some miles, Mexican’s friends of Tandinbilnojui accompanied them and quitted them letting several bottles of alcohol. During the night the former Nednhi’s Chief continue to drink.
In the morning 21st of September, completely intoxicated, Tandinbilnojui decided, or was enable to stop his horse, to overcome by riding a high bank along the Casas Grandes River. The river, not deep enough, could not cushion his fall. His head certainly hit a rock under water. Like his horse, he was killed by the fall immediately or soon after. Did he commit suicide or was it an accident? We will never known. He was the last chief of all the Nednhis and their guide since twenty years. He let two widows and three sons, the warriors Delzhinne and Daklegon and the boy Daklugie.
His followers and friends mourned him the days after but some, surely destroyed and lost, began with the help of the mescal to make damage. One of his last warrior killed his wife and fled from the camp. When he returned Naiche and Kla-esch tried to calm him without success, the warrior continue to shot people. Then Kla-esch killed him right in the head.
If some Chiricahuas went trading six days after, with the mourning of the Nednhi Chief the negotiations were restored only in early October 1883. The bad omen of Tandinbilnojui’s death, the alert of some Mexican trading’s partner about the presence of more soldiers, the fact that Goyakla saw horses belonging to Terrazas and now fully sober, the chiefs were very suspicious. Naiche was present at the third meeting and saw peones beginning to surround them, he understood they were disguised soldiers. He and Goyakla gave orders to quit quickly the council to avoid the trap. Goyakla made a plea to postpone the council with the promise to come back in ten days, enough to put distance between them and the soldiers in Casas Grandes.
When the chiefs returned to their camp, they were surprised to find Yo-tah-ah, Pet-zahn and Fatty there. The three explained it was time to come to San Carlos. Yo-tah-ah described certainly to Naiche and his Chokonens that they were well fed by the soldiers, living near the agency healthier than the sub-agency. He surely gave information that civilian agent did want them and that the others tribes in San Carlos did not let the Chiricahuas attended councils. But Nantan Lupan protected them and his subordinate Captain Crawford, whom the Apaches called “Tall chief”, was fair and take care well of the Chiricahuas. It also seemed obvious they understood that the fate of Charley McComas was important for the Americans. All the Chiricahuas invented a story that the boy fled during the 15th attack and was lost. They would say for decades that he certainly die by frozing or starvation.
Naiche had enough to stay south of the border, listening Goyakla and tempting futile and very risky tries to release their relatives. He decided it was time to keep his words and ordered his Chokonens to move north. Kaathenay would joined the Chokonens.
Goyakla, Pedes-klinje and Zele, all Bedonkohes, decided to wait again. Goyakla, even if he said he would surrender, clearly did not want to quit the way of life he loved in Mexico. But as a leader he understood that few warriors would follow him in this way, so he sent his son Naclede to San Carlos in mission to report to his father the life at San Carlos. Pedes-klinje was ready to surrender, so we can wonder why he delayed the come back? It was surely because he traded some of his herds at Casas Grandes and wanted to raid to have new mounts. Zele stayed behind mainly for the same reason but it proved, for me, that Zele and his gota willingly fled San Carlos, in April 1882.
7th of October, the Chokonens began their journey north with Yo-tah-ah and Pet-zhan. Ninety Chiricahuas among them twenty-one warriors, mostly Chokonens, followed Naiche. No Chokonen stayed with Goyakla, showing the authority had Naiche on his band at this time. They moved north across the foothills of the Sierra Madre. Anxious about the forces that Chihuahua’s state had concentrated, they were cautious during their journey and went more slowly than usual.
About mid-october, they camped for one week in the Sierra Teras while Kaathenay, Ulzana, one woman and eight warriors left them to launch a mounts’ raid. They reached the Sierra Pitacaiche and rested a few days in Los Embudos Canyon. Naiche and Kla-esch sent Pet-zhan to look for soldiers and announced their arrival. The order was to guid the soldiers in Silver Creek, thirty-five miles north of the border, for the meeting.
During the night of 23rd and 24th of October, they started to move in schedule to come back in Arizona, by open landscape. They certainly let most of their ammunition to Kaathenay and Ulzana for the raid. Naiche and three other warriors covered the rear and drove the herd. But early in the morning they had not cross the border, yet. They were spotted by villagers who alerted soldiers. Naiche saw the soldiers and hurried his men. They succeeded to escape letting some heads of stock. When they arrived at Silver Creek, Pet-zhan and soldiers of Fort Bowie were already there.
Suspicious, the Chiricahuas and Naichedid not let the soldiers visiting their camp. 26th of October, Captain Rafferty and Lieutenant Davis releaved the soldiers of Fort Bowie. They met Naiche and Kla-esch who said they have to wait one week Kaathenay and Ulzana. Naiche informed that Goyakla and Pedes-klinje would follow them some months later. Davis was accompanied by three Chiricahua’s warriors among them was Tah-ni-toe, a close friend of Naiche and Kay-dhazinne his brother-in-law and nephew of Kla-esch. These presences certainly relaxed a little Naiche about their return.
But Tah-ni-toe informed Naiche that his wife, Nah-de-yole was badly ill when he left the reservation with Davis, a month ago. Naiche decided to go alone, 28th of October surely with Tah-ni-toe, to San Carlos. Naiche wanted to be near Nah-de-yole. 1st of November, Naiche was come back in San Carlos just two years after he fled and five months after he promised to Nantan Lupan, his return. He was not the same chief. He was not only the chief for the women and children but also for the warriors of his band. He certainly was, somewhat, disheartened because following him some of his Chokonens had been killed or captured among them some relatives. Even Yo-tah-ah said the Chiricahuas were well treated by Captain Crawford, Naiche was surely uncertain and doubtful about this blue soldier’s chief.
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Post by saskia21 on Aug 28, 2021 4:27:22 GMT -5
Beas Ketla is definately Jim Curly, in the 1893 census he is living with his brother and he is named curly (p 70 1893 census: archive.org/details/indiancensusroll462unit/page/n69/mode/1up?view=theaterin the 1894- 1897 he is called Beasketla ( 1894 census 174: archive.org/details/indiancensusroll462unit/page/n173/mode/1up?view=theater)As to Gessemida beeing a possible sister of Nahilzay and married to Cochise i dont know. I remember reading somewhere that Nahilzay's sisters name was Nahlekadeya and she was the one married to Cochise. But i can't remember where I got that info from. May be he married sisters? I have found Gessemida/Gessemuda/ Gessemeede, born cir 1839 sporadically in de census records in 1898, 1900, 1904, 1905 she is living with her grandson Howdetsoan/Hometdoan/ Howetason born cir 1880. But after 1905 I can't find either one again. As to Nastasay beeing Jas tassy it is possible but i haven't been able to establish the link or found conclusive proof she is the right person. In 1907 census (page 218 n°39), Jim Curly was named again Baskeetlan (english name Kelly?) and Nastasay became Djaistaze. In 1906 Jim Curley and Nastasay were in the same Coyotero band (J) at the same number n°39. Djaistaze seems more similar to Jastassey than Nastasay so I conclud définitvly that Nastasay=Djaistaze=Jas-tessy = sister of Naiche. His name changes again in 1914 to James Curly (Bahuskalaon) and Helen Curly ( Daistage) it is definately them, as in 1907 as 1914 they are on the same page as James Curly's brother. I can trace them all the way to 1929 at San Carlos |
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 28, 2021 4:37:17 GMT -5
from san carlos census in 1907, San Carlos Tribe, you will find Zanyego at n°755, single.
Zanyego, daughter of Gessemida, sister of Jastessay and mother of Tah-de-tonn. In census 1914-1915, always n°39 band J Coyorero tribe, Jim Curly who change his nickname as Kelly, became Sherman Curley and Jastessay Helen Curley.
Also always n°16 band H of San CArlos tribe, Tah-de-tonn became Charles Denton and Zanyego became Maria Denton. Gessemida certainly died in 1913. But juts below n°16 a widow was in n°17, named Djanate and nickname Julia Denton (like the family n°16) and Djanate was more similar to Zhante than Zanyego. So I think Djhanate was Zhante, not Zanyego.
In 1877, Naiche had 11 dependents in San Carlos, 9 women and 2 children. For me, the children were Dorothy and Naslada. The women were Nah-de-yole, E-clah-eh, Dos-teh-seh, Yones, Gessemida, Naithlontonz, Das-den-shooz and his half-sisters, Jastessey and Zhante. I think Znayego was another half-sister older than Naiche and certainly living, in 1877, with her husband and Tah-de-tonn (10 years old). Maybe the firts marriage of Zanyego was with Tygee the leader of of Cochise's bodyguards.
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