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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 9, 2021 8:48:22 GMT -5
Hello, Look what I find in the NARA archive (1900 Fort Sill). Some Chirichuas did not leave San CArlos in 1886. And in 1900 Naiche and others asked the US Army send these kinfolk at Fort Sill with them. In the list some names not know from were related to NAiche. I think I find the names of the the two daughter of Cochise and Nahilzay's sister. Unfortunatly, one name was impossible to read entirely. In the lis there other interesting information of unknown sisters of Geronimo,Chatto and Chihuahua too. Names of Naiches relatives : Half-Sisters : Zh..? and Jas-tasey (the loast married to a Tonto Apache) nephew : Tah-do-tonn (from Jas-tasey I guess) and In-tin-see-zhoos (Hugh Chee's brother) relation : a woman (cousin?) called As-tsi-tah and her son I hope you can see the atatchments Parker West = Nostlin (aka Knox Nostlin) |
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Post by saskia21 on Aug 9, 2021 10:11:11 GMT -5
  Very sad news... if I am rright the two half-sisters of Naiche married a White mountain Apache named Si-pah in 1884-85 for Zhan-te and 1886 for Jas-tessay. Ka-chiz, born c.1885 was surely a daughter of Zhan-te about this union. i 1892 Si-pah took a third wife, in 1894 Jas-tessay was no more married to Si-pah and Zhan-te and Ka-chiz did not live with Si-pah in 1895. Hi Coeurrouge, Just wondered where did the information of the marriages come from? I did find in 1893 Census : Tia Pa (Born circa 1847) =Si pah?, Tza din tay ( Born cir, 1862) =Zhante? , Not zay ay ( Born circa 1870) -Jas tessay?, Kei duz (Born cir 1885)= Ka chiz? 1894 Census: Tia Pa, Tza din tay, Not zay ay, Ka chiz, Cha a ha , later named Na lene che gay, Born cir 1891) daughter aged 3 and Ton nay ( Born 1892 - died before 1895) daughter aged 2. In de 1895 census : There is just Tia pa, No zay ay en Na lene che gay In de 1896 census Tia pah is shown with only Pah tah 16, daughter, in de 1897 census she is listed as his wife and they now have 6 month old daughter ( Go zhee calth) no name is given. In de census of 1898 No say ay is listed as a widow, with her daughter Na lene che gay. and Tia pa is still listed as only with Pah tah and her daughter. In de 1899/ 1900 census Pah tah is listed as a widow and in 1900 lives with her daughter Go zhee calth, who was born cir 1897, whilst Tia pa is listed living with Nat say ay and a her daughter Nalene che gay and another daughter aged two ( Hen ny tosh) 1901-1903 census Tia pa lives with Nat say ay and there three daughters : Maud Nalene che gay (1891), Hen ny tosh (1898) and telth en ( born 1901), and two other daughters ( I assume they are the daughters of Pah tah): Gu Sho ga la possibly Go zhee calth ( 1897) and Eda yon so la born 1900. Can't find them after 1903... |
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 9, 2021 10:26:33 GMT -5
It just an idea, may be wrong. Since 1898, in which census (San Carlos or Fort Apache) you find Tiapa and which page, please? Naiche and the others in may 1900 seemed to know well where lived their relatives because in the request one of them was living in Fort Apache in 1900.
the most important census was 1899 (the one before their request), I think.
About Pat-tah and Tia-pa or Si-pah, I think they were 2 differents men base on the informations you give.
thanks for the help.
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Post by saskia21 on Aug 9, 2021 12:06:29 GMT -5
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 9, 2021 12:39:26 GMT -5
Thanks very much. Jas-tessay was said to be married, in 1900, to a Tonto Apache, meaning living in San Carlos. I will look more carefully in San Carlos Census.
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 9, 2021 15:52:04 GMT -5
Hi coeurrouge! Names of Naiche's relatives are Zhan-te - sister, Jas-tassy – sister, “married to Tonto Indian”, Tah-do-tonn - nephew, Ah-tsi-tah and her son.
From United States Congressional serial set 4155 v81: ![]() View AttachmentI read all the document thaht the Apaches in the list wanted to be removed to Fort Sill and all the letter suggested that US authorities allowed that and gave 10000 $ for the removal. But I do not see the congress' act who allowed definitvly the removal. |
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Post by naiches2 on Aug 10, 2021 20:18:04 GMT -5
Hello, Look what I find in the NARA archive (1900 Fort Sill). Some Chirichuas did not leave San CArlos in 1886. And in 1900 Naiche and others asked the US Army send these kinfolk at Fort Sill with them. In the list some names not know from were related to NAiche. I think I find the names of the the two daughter of Cochise and Nahilzay's sister. Unfortunatly, one name was impossible to read entirely. In the lis there other interesting information of unknown sisters of Geronimo,Chatto and Chihuahua too. Names of Naiches relatives : Half-Sisters : Zh..? and Jas-tasey (the loast married to a Tonto Apache) nephew : Tah-do-tonn (from Jas-tasey I guess) and In-tin-see-zhoos (Hugh Chee's brother) relation : a woman (cousin?) called As-tsi-tah and her son I hope you can see the atatchments Parker West = Nostlin (aka Knox Nostlin) Parker West (How-o-zin/'Standing', 1872 – post 1911) was Kaahtenay's brother or cousine, sent to Carlisle 1884. Knox Nostlin (No'-Stle, 1865 – post 1896) was relative of Gail Marco, sent to Carlisle 1886.  |
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 11, 2021 4:41:01 GMT -5
You are right, I did not see in Delgadillo's book, sorry. But PArker West and Nostlin came back San Carlos both and both they were married to a wife named Galone in the "Coyotero"'s tribe.
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 13, 2021 15:10:55 GMT -5
San carlos census 1897-1902 p516, p608 and p708 (1900 to 1902) I got that for Jas-tessy, written Nastasay? In the census the couple never getting old, great diyin... I do not find, yet, the couple before 1900 and after 1902. |
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Post by saskia21 on Aug 15, 2021 3:10:21 GMT -5
San carlos census 1897-1902 p516, p608 and p708 (1900 to 1902) I got that for Jas-tessy, written Nastasay? In the census the couple never getting old, great diyin... I do not find, yet, the couple before 1900 and after 1902. Not sure this is the right person but here is what I found: 1893 San Carlos census living with her mother? Gessemide (P. 93 archive.org/details/indiancensusroll462unit/page/n92/mode/1up?view=theater)1898 San Carlos census living with her brother in law (p. 208 archive.org/details/indiancensusroll463unit/page/n207/mode/1up?view=theater)1899 San Carlos Census living with Jim Curly 1904 and 1905 San carlos Census living with Jim Curly 1907 San Carlos census; Jim Curly is listed as widower 1914-1920 San Carlos Census: James Curly is listed as widower 1920 San Carlos Census : James Curly is living with Nancy Hooke (Natsaydaaya) and daughter hazel 1924 San Carlos Census: James is living with Nancy no daughter     Note Nancy Hooke is not the same person as Nastasay. Nancy was married to a Tonto apache in 1893, widowed in 1920 after that she was with Jim (James) Curly |
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 16, 2021 6:54:51 GMT -5
San carlos census 1897-1902 p516, p608 and p708 (1900 to 1902) I got that for Jas-tessy, written Nastasay? In the census the couple never getting old, great diyin... I do not find, yet, the couple before 1900 and after 1902. Not sure this is the right person but here is what I found: 1893 San Carlos census living with her mother? Gessemide (P. 93 archive.org/details/indiancensusroll462unit/page/n92/mode/1up?view=theater)1898 San Carlos census living with her brother in law (p. 208 archive.org/details/indiancensusroll463unit/page/n207/mode/1up?view=theater)1899 San Carlos Census living with Jim Curly 1904 and 1905 San carlos Census living with Jim Curly 1907 San Carlos census; Jim Curly is listed as widower 1914-1920 San Carlos Census: James Curly is listed as widower 1920 San Carlos Census : James Curly is living with Nancy Hooke (Natsaydaaya) and daughter hazel 1924 San Carlos Census: James is living with Nancy no daughter View AttachmentView AttachmentView AttachmentView AttachmentNote Nancy Hooke is not the same person as Nastasay. Nancy was married to a Tonto apache in 1893, widowed in 1920 after that she was with Jim (James) Curly Beas-Ketla = Jim Curley ? If Nastasay = Jas-tassy so Gessemiday = Sister of Nahilzay and second wife of Cochise ? Ages could correspond. |
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Post by saskia21 on Aug 16, 2021 11:21:35 GMT -5
Beas Ketla is definately Jim Curly, in the 1893 census he is living with his brother and he is named curly (p 70 1893 census: archive.org/details/indiancensusroll462unit/page/n69/mode/1up?view=theaterin the 1894- 1897 he is called Beasketla ( 1894 census 174: archive.org/details/indiancensusroll462unit/page/n173/mode/1up?view=theater)As to Gessemida beeing a possible sister of Nahilzay and married to Cochise i dont know. I remember reading somewhere that Nahilzay's sisters name was Nahlekadeya and she was the one married to Cochise. But i can't remember where I got that info from. May be he married sisters? I have found Gessemida/Gessemuda/ Gessemeede, born cir 1839 sporadically in de census records in 1898, 1900, 1904, 1905 she is living with her grandson Howdetsoan/Hometdoan/ Howetason born cir 1880. But after 1905 I can't find either one again. As to Nastasay beeing Jas tassy it is possible but i haven't been able to establish the link or found conclusive proof she is the right person. |
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 16, 2021 11:29:35 GMT -5
Thanks very much for your help.
Nahlekadeya was in Broken Arrow from Elliot Arnold's book. Not a real person because describe as Naiche's mother.
Howetdetsoan = Tah-do-tonn, Naiche's nephew?
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Post by saskia21 on Aug 16, 2021 12:30:07 GMT -5
May just have found the link to proof you are right:
In the 1912 census San Carlos :https://archive.org/details/indiancensusroll464unit/page/n721/mode/1up?view=theater
Tahdntudn = Tah do tonn? Husband 45 (Born cir 1867) so not Howetdetsoan he is probablly a son of Jas tassey)
Coase wife 46 ( born cir 1866)
Gasemiyeda = Gessemida? 76 grand mother( Born cir 1836)
Zanyego = Zhante? 61 mother (Born cir 1851)
On ancestry I have found them in the following census:
1907 Tudntudn lives with his grand mother and is single
1909 - 1912 the four of them live together.
I may have also found Chihuahua sister Na ya di nilth in the 1909 census : Na na tla telth widow age 73 ( born cir 1836 which would be sbout the right age, same page as Tudntudn and family where on in 1909)
Will have to look into this a bit more.
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Post by coeurrouge on Aug 16, 2021 15:11:35 GMT -5
We are certainly near. Jim Curley was a coyotero in the 1893 census (eastern white mountain?). Maybe in Chiricahua language J = N in Coyoreto language
And Nastasay and her mother lived with the San Carlos Apache (Pinal and Arivaipa)in 1893.
In in the list of 1900 there was a woman called Gumbada = Gessemida (I am not sure about that)
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