|
|
Post by jasper4 on Aug 14, 2019 13:30:31 GMT -5
item of note why would permission of president be needed. your info is correct yet barrett embellish it or he wanted it to sell Hi, As you know Jasper, your two assertions are directly connected. They needed the presidents permission because Jerónimo represented the Broncos they could not control even having much developed means for it. (Remember how many soldiers did they need for his little band to surrender.) Jerónimo was very feared and indeed he put the army in very uncomfortable situations, as we all know. The US side of the story would not allow a weak appearance in front of the readers. I know it was hard for him to accept its writing and of course the Indian version was lighter than the one that would have result, if not inspected. If fact they read it very carefully when it was finished. It’s also fear to think that had he been free to express himself open wide, his version would have probably been more embarrassing for the US government, that what it really was. It’s a matter of perspective. the president gave geronimo permission to travel to washington to be in roosevelt's parade, it had nothing to do with geronimo's book. The book was written for him and the author wrote it to sell the book. |
|
Nahi
New Member
Posts: 45
|
Post by Nahi on Aug 15, 2019 7:13:38 GMT -5
Hi, As you know Jasper, your two assertions are directly connected. They needed the presidents permission because Jerónimo represented the Broncos they could not control even having much developed means for it. (Remember how many soldiers did they need for his little band to surrender.) Jerónimo was very feared and indeed he put the army in very uncomfortable situations, as we all know. The US side of the story would not allow a weak appearance in front of the readers. I know it was hard for him to accept its writing and of course the Indian version was lighter than the one that would have result, if not inspected. If fact they read it very carefully when it was finished. It’s also fear to think that had he been free to express himself open wide, his version would have probably been more embarrassing for the US government, that what it really was. It’s a matter of perspective. the president gave geronimo permission to travel to washington to be in roosevelt's parade, it had nothing to do with geronimo's book. The book was written for him and the author wrote it to sell the book. I very much respect your opinion about Geronimos book and the permission of the president Roosvelt. But mine is different thought and I with all respect, completely desagree: The summer of 1905 Stephen Melvil Barrett asked Jerónimo to let him publish some of the things he had previously told him about his life. He accepted only if it was warranted that none of the POWS could ever have any problem due to the content of that publication. Straight away S.M. asked lieutenant Purington if he was authorized to write it and his answer was that it was better to hang him. Still S.M. insisted writing directly to the president Roosevelt and few days latter he was informed that the president accepted but asked as a condition to receive the accurate instructions on how to do it by the War Ministry. Once it was written, S.M. gave it to the commander Charles W. Taylor who suggested to add more info in some concrete matters. Jerónimo acceded and when it was completed it was sent to the president who said that it was a really interesting manuscript and gave to the author one unique advice: to evade responsibility for any case where someone’s reputation suffered. On June 2 1906 the manuscript was sent to the War Ministry including the presidents advice and then the brigadier general Thomas C. Barry sent to the president all the fragments that he consider should be recusable. For example when Jerónimo accused Gen. Miles of bad faith, or the “supposed“ attack to the Apache pass that the brigadier said did not occur ( a fact confirmed to had happened by L. C. Hughes, director of the newspapers , The Star of Tucson) |
|
|
|
Post by jasper4 on Aug 16, 2019 9:54:34 GMT -5
the president gave geronimo permission to travel to washington to be in roosevelt's parade, it had nothing to do with geronimo's book. The book was written for him and the author wrote it to sell the book. I very much respect your opinion about Geronimos book and the permission of the president Roosvelt. But mine is different thought and I with all respect, completely desagree: The summer of 1905 Stephen Melvil Barrett asked Jerónimo to let him publish some of the things he had previously told him about his life. He accepted only if it was warranted that none of the POWS could ever have any problem due to the content of that publication. Straight away S.M. asked lieutenant Purington if he was authorized to write it and his answer was that it was better to hang him. Still S.M. insisted writing directly to the president Roosevelt and few days latter he was informed that the president accepted but asked as a condition to receive the accurate instructions on how to do it by the War Ministry. Once it was written, S.M. gave it to the commander Charles W. Taylor who suggested to add more info in some concrete matters. Jerónimo acceded and when it was completed it was sent to the president who said that it was a really interesting manuscript and gave to the author one unique advice: to evade responsibility for any case where someone’s reputation suffered. On June 2 1906 the manuscript was sent to the War Ministry including the presidents advice and then the brigadier general Thomas C. Barry sent to the president all the fragments that he consider should be recusable. For example when Jerónimo accused Gen. Miles of bad faith, or the “supposed“ attack to the Apache pass that the brigadier said did not occur ( a fact confirmed to had happened by L. C. Hughes, director of the newspapers , The Star of Tucson) I respect yours as well, yet the bottom line the work by your own info was censored persay. |
|
|
|
Post by coeurrouge on Oct 20, 2019 4:19:28 GMT -5
Another suggestion that I had certainly done before but I did not remember in which thread. Another things are : that why in the 1880s the Chiricahua, especially the Bedonkohes who fled out of reservation followed Geronimo if he was not know in records (Mexican or American)like Juh, Nana, Chihuahua and Nahilzay before 1872. For me it was because Geronimo had a first nickname : El Cautivo. But El Cautivo signify The Prisonner. From americans El Cautivo was called like this because he was hold as a mexican prisonner when he was a child and Geronimo never said he was mexican prisonner once. In november 1834 Jasquedega, nedni local group leader, went in El Paso with fifteen people (men, women and children)to speak of peace. The warlike faction (as the bedonkohe chief Mangas) allowed him to speak for them. Geronimo seemed to have strong relation dated on childhood with the nedni band. I think (carefull it certainly more a romance than the truce but maybe...)Just after his hather's death, him and his mother visited Jasquadega. Because I think Geronimo's mother was a nedni woman from this local group of Jasquedega and with his 10-11 year old son sent a visit at this time. If I am true Geronimo was hold as prisonner untill may or june 1835 in El Paso, and as adult he was known as El Cautivo. I also think his first years as warrior were lived in Alope's nedni family, untill march, 1851. His mother now widow without children to care of her, apparently, followed Goyakla. I guess Alope's family lived in the local group of Nednis led by Arvizu killed in march 1851 by Carrasco soldiers near Janos in the same attack that destroyed Goyakla's family. It was only after that Goyakla came back on his band and became a warlike leader of the bedonkohe, in the 1850s, thanks to his diyinand ferioucity. Again, I share ideas not truce. In complement, I wrote this in 2010 : The two leaders were both Bedonkohes, speaking spanish, seems to have the same body and had the same behavior of inveterate raiders. *Both became leaders of Bedonkohe local group on the 1850'. *El Cautivo was very closed of Mangas Coloradas and Cochise. Geronimo always said that he was closed of this main Chiricahuas Chiefs. *On Angie Debo's Geronimo, the shaman said that one time his rancheria was attacked by Mexican Troops, when lot of warriors were absent, and his wife,Nana-Tha-Thtith was killed with her chid and with others women and children. 4 prisonners were taken.On Mangas'book, Sweeney wrote that on december, 13th, 1858, Escalante attacked, on the Otates Monts, a rancheria certainly of El Cautivo, killed 18 people, most of them were women and children and took 4 prisonners. *Geronimo said that just after the death of Mangas Coloradas, he became the Bedonkohe Band Chief. The most powerful known leaders of the Bedonkohe at this time were Luis (an obscur son of Mangas, killed on 1864) and El Cautivo. * When Cochise met Howard, El Cautivo was presented as a warlike Cochise's captain. In Geronimo legend, it is said that Geronimo was the leader of the young and warlike warriors of Cochise. * When El Cautivo disappeared from Cochise's Book , Geronimo appeared and officials reports. (Like Fuerte and Mangas Coloradas). *Sweeney said that during the councils of peace between Cochise and howard, the interpreter was El Cautivo. Sladen and Captain Summer identified him later as Geronimo. *Historian Robert Utley made the same conclusion about the interpreter (but not definitive). NEW INFORMATION that make me sure El Cautivo and Geronimo were a same man : Goyakla. In march to Draggon Springs 13th october 1872, Geronimo remenbered to have jumped on Howard mule back of the General and travelled with him to the official peace council with Fort Bowie officers. On the book "Cochise, firsthand accounts..." page 234, for Washington Daily Morning Chronicle (10th november 1872) General Howard did his account of his journey in Apacheria and he wrote "We had an interesting cavalcade. I rode a good stout mule, having Cochise's interpreter riding behind me on the same.." Now I am sure that Goyakla had two nicknames: El Cautivo given by Chihuahuans when he was captive at El Paso (to confirm this captivity) Geronimo given by his fellows or Sonorans after the battle of Pozo Hediondo. Half of the sonorans soldiers of the battle came from Arizpe. Arizpe was founded in 1646 by the Jesuit missionary Jerónimo de la Canal and soldiers cried Santos Jeronimo for protection during the battle. Only the name Geronimo was known by the Americans. He open new perspectives for the fifty first years of Goyakla's life. |
|
|
|
Post by coeurrouge on Oct 25, 2020 14:06:22 GMT -5
Hello, between may 1882 and january 1883, we know Geronimo had three wives and two children captured. Among the three wives we know there was Chee-Hash-Kish, mother of Dohn-say and Chappo. We also know that a wife nicknamed Mañanita captured in january 1883, escaped captivity in Chihuahua City in summer 1883. It was supposed Mañanita was Zi-yeh. I am not suppose the same thing. I think Mañanita was the nickname of Chee-hash-kish. I have just read Geronimo and Mañanita's statements done to Captain Crawford and I find some interresting information. Geronimo told crawford a young son of him died during the winter 1883-84. About the members of his family captured : 1. Mañanita had a daughter of ten years old captured with her. it means, the girl born before Zi-yeh and Geronimo were married. So Mañanita could not be Zi-yeh. 2. In the list of the 95 chiricahuas prisonners, no name seems like Chee-hash-kish. So I concluded that Chee-hash-kish was Mañanita. 3. On her statement the wife explained that her girl, daughter of Geronimo, named Ish-zah-nay. She also said in jail she recovered another wife of Geronimo named Nah-no, captured in may 1882 4. Chee-hash-kish explained that her sister was too, captured with her. this sister had a young boy with her. I think they were the other wife and child, of Geronimo captured in Sahuaripa. the sister was called Bish-y-ay and his son José. In the list of Britton Davis they were 30 years and 7 years old. Down Chee-hash-kish Attachments:
|
|
Nahi
New Member
Posts: 45
|
Post by Nahi on Oct 27, 2020 13:12:23 GMT -5
Very interesting information coeurrouge, I didn´t know much about the other wifes captured with Mañanita (who is not Zi-yeh).
|
|
|
|
Post by naiches2 on Aug 17, 2021 13:17:33 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by coeurrouge on Aug 17, 2021 16:00:18 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by naiches2 on Aug 17, 2021 17:21:26 GMT -5
Record Group 94
|
|
|
|
Post by coeurrouge on Aug 18, 2021 4:51:42 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by saskia21 on Aug 20, 2021 15:27:28 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by saskia21 on Aug 21, 2021 9:29:37 GMT -5
The nephew of Geronimo, Nahkiss: Nahkis enlisted as an Indian scout at San Carlos in: 13 June 1891 discharged 21 dec 1891 – us army register of enlistment 1798-1914 p 740 (Ancestry.com) 1 July 1892 discharged 21 dec 1892 – us army register of enlistment 1798-1914 p 741 (Ancestry.com) 5 jun 1893 discharged 4 dec 1893 – us army register of enlistment 1798-1914 p742 (Ancestry.com) 6 dec 1893 discharged may 1894 – us army register of enlistment 1798-1914 p743(Ancestry.com) 1893 Census San Carlos: • Nakees head 28 (cir 1865) • Natlaydintlah wife 19 (cir 1974) • Ancestry: 1893 San Carlos, Coyotero,, page 84 , numbers 1130-1131 Free census: 1893 San Carlos ,Coyotero, page91, numbers 1130-1131 archive.org/details/indiancensusroll462unit/page/n90/mode/1up?view=theater1896 San Carlos census Nahkiss: • Nawkees 31 (cir 1865) • Nawtayduitah wife 22 (cir 1874) • Son 1 (cir 1895) Ancestry: 1896 San Carlos, Coyotero,, page 585 , numbers 1014-1016 Free census: 1896 San Carlos ,Coyotero, page 616 numbers 1014 -1016 archive.org/details/indiancensusroll462unit/page/n615/mode/1up?view=theater1898 Census San Carlos Apache Nakiss: • Nawkiss male 33 ( cir 1865) • Nawtlay dintah female wife 24 ( cir 1874) • ? male son 3 (cir 1895) Ancestry: 1898 San Carlos, Apache, page 214 , numbers 796-798 Free census: 1898 San Carlos, Apache, page227 , numbers 796-798 archive.org/details/indiancensusroll463unit/page/n226/mode/1up?view=theater1899 Census San Carlos Nahkiss: • Nawkees 34 • Nawtlaudintlah wife 25 • Daughter 1 Ancestry: 1899 San Carlos, Apache, page 331 , number 960-962 Free census: 1899 San Carlos, Apache 347, page, numbers 960-962 archive.org/details/indiancensusroll463unit/page/n346/mode/1up?view=theaterHavent been able to find them yet after 1899. |
|
|
|
Post by saskia21 on Aug 23, 2021 2:49:17 GMT -5
Thanks to Coeurrouge, who posted a link on the western apache scouts I found this: Nahkis was inlisted from 1890 to 1893 at San Carlos, so a little earlier then I found.  |
|
|
|
Post by coeurrouge on Aug 24, 2021 9:10:29 GMT -5
Nahkiss was found. He was not a nephew of Geronimo but second cousin. From San CArlos Census, White Mountains from Captain Chiquito living in San Carlos. 1887-1890 page 93. His sister Jsh-ish was born 1808. Jsh-ish's son, Pase-kanny born c.1838, married a White Mountain woman and in 1889 had 6 children : -son Nah-kiss born c.1865 -son Dos-kia born c.1870 - son Nal-chinnay born c.1878 - 2 boys and 1 gril born after 1883 Attachments:
|
|
|
|
Post by coeurrouge on Aug 27, 2021 6:20:01 GMT -5
Nahkiss was found. He was not a nephew of Geronimo but second cousin. From San CArlos Census, White Mountains from Captain Chiquito living in San Carlos. 1887-1890 page 93. His sister Jsh-ish was born 1808. Jsh-ish's son, Pase-kanny born c.1838, married a White Mountain woman and in 1889 had 6 children : -son Nah-kiss born c.1865 -son Dos-kia born c.1870 - son Nal-chinnay born c.1878 - 2 boys and 1 gril born after 1883 Jsh-ish and Diltche from Betzinez's book could be the same woman? |
|
