Geronimo

[natethegreat]

Oct 26, 2018 15:47:26 GMT -5 juan said:

Good information and picture. Anyone know why there is very little info on the son of mangas coporadas I have only seen a pic of him where geronim an naiche are sitting on top of something looking like canons in Florida I think

Yes that picture was Geronimo, Naiche, and Mangas in Ft. Leavenworth. Mangas was not with them when they arrived. He arrived later. Mangas did not follow Geronimo or Naiche. He has his own band of Apaches that were on the run. He was just above the Mexican border on Arizona raiding near the Yavapai tribal lands when Geronimo surrendered, and it took some time for him to surrender after learning that Geronimo, Naiche, Fun, Perico, Chatto, and the others had already surrendered.

[Dietmar]

Peter has sent me this picture of Geronimo in captivity at Fort Houston, San Antonio, just before he was shipped to Florida.

I think we had a clearer version of it before, but this one apparently shows the original stereographic card by photographer F. Hardesty.



Thank you, Peter!

[ted]

The famous photo of Geronimo kneeling down with his rifle taken by Ben Wittick in 1887 is confusing to me, Geronimo surrendered in 1886 and some sources said the photo was taken San Carlos reservation. We know that in 1887 Geronimo was at Fort Pickens, Pensacola. Could anyone tell me where the photo was taken and when. There are photos of Naiche, Mangus Colorado’s son and Nana holding the same rifle with the same backdrop. Any help. Thank you

[dT]

And a follow-up question, along the same lines. What happened to Geronimo's real rifle, the one he actually had when he surrendered? Rumor has it ... that the rifle was given to Gen. Miles. But where is it now? Does anyone know?

[peter]

Great point Ted. The photo was taken at San Carlos Reservation in 1884 by Frank Randall. The 1887 date is incorrect. On October 25, 1886 a train arrived at Pensacola Florida. Onboard there was Geronimo, Naiche and 14 more Apache men and their family. Under guard they were separated from their wives and children and forced onto a steamer across Pensacola bay to Fort Pickens. Their relatives reamined on the train and were shipped to Fort Marion in St. Augustine. On April 27, 1887, finally the families were reunited. The Apaches at Fort Pickens were removed on May 12, 1888 to Mount Vernon Barracks north of Mobile, Alabama. In 1887 Geronimo was at Fort Pickens and it was impossible that he took that photo there since with the same back round there were pictures taken of Chatto, Mangas Colorado junior, Chihuahua and others. All these warriors were not at Penscacola with Geronimo and Naiche in 1887. It is interesting that both photographs of Chatto 1884 and Geronimo 1887 not only show use of the same props (foliage) by photographer but use—without a doubt—the same gun! Gun shown, in my opinion, is a sporterized .45-70 Trapdoor Springfield rifle. Western photographers often used the same props over and over. Many, but not all, Western photographs often show dudes all decked out in new store-bought gun rigs with empty cartridge belts, new chaps, boots, clothing—often in real tough poses.
The Springfield rifle shown in the photos for sure did not belong to Chatto or Geronimo
The photos were both taken by A. Frank Randall at San Carlos in 1884. There is also a similar photo of Mangas Coloradas, but with a different gun, obviously taken at the same time. I doubt if the scarf is a prop, as Geronimo wears scarves in other photos, but it certainly could be. I agree that it is a prop rifle, perhaps owned by Randall. Geronimo is, of course, photographed with his own Springfield in the famous surrender photos.
While there is no way to know for sure who owned the rifle, my guess is that it was probably a studio gun. This was a common practice and can be seen in photos from other frontier photographers to spice up their images. Therefore the 1887 date, in my opinion it is incorrect. Take care

[dT]

Thank you for clarifying. I am not really worried about the studio gun. What i would like to know, what happened to Geronimo's real rifle? And for that matter, what was he really carrying? I got the impression, but i could be wrong,that Geronimo was actually carrying a long-barreled rifle, which would have given him better accuracy over long ranges.

It makes sense that Gen. Miles might have taken control of Geronimo's rifle after his surrender. But it does seem strange that the rifle disappeared, or was lost over time.

[peter]

dT The famous photo, with Geronimo, his son and two warriors, shows Geronimo carrying a Trapdoor 1879 Springfield Rifle. The other warriors are armed with late model Winchesters and a Trapdoor Springfield carbine. Geronimo stuck with the full size single shot long barrel. An expert marksman, Geronimo wielded this robust, accurate weapon with devastating effect in firefights, specially in the Sonora Canyon on June 17th. Unfortunately I can't help about the whereabouts of his rifle.

[dT]

Thank you. It confirms my impression of Geronimo. He was a sniper at heart. He preferred to shoot over long distances. It's logical and it was a very effective strategy for him.

I have never read about his shooting accuracy. I have not seen what happened at the Battle of Sonora. I have always been curious about how Geronimo got so good with the ballistics. Someone must have coached him. Long distance shooting could not have been easy in those days.

It makes sense to me that Fun would have preferred a Winchester. That is a very good choice for an Apache who is brave and very fast on his feet.

It is very strange that Geronimo's rifle just disappeared, don't you think? It would be a real collector's item. People must have realized that. Too bad Gen Miles didnt donate the rifle to Westpoint, or some place like that.

BTW, I am no fan of Miles. But it was the end of the Indian wars and Miles was just using whatever (dirty) strategy worked to get things wrapped up.

[gregor]

As Peter said 1884, here are some of these Randall pix:

[gregor]

... and some more


Chatto


Bonito


Nana


Loco

[dT]

You know, i was thinking. Maybe my impressions were influenced by Hollywood. In the movie called 'Geronimo' it shows his rifle being transferred to Gen. Miles after he surrendered.

But in real life - things might not have happened that way. Maybe Geronimo never carried his rifle on the day he turned himself in to the US Army. So maybe he gave his real rifle to someone else, like another Chiricahua. That would explain why it is not in the official records. It's just a thought. I don't know for sure.

Thanks for all of the great photos! They are excellent!!

[juan]

Jun 23, 2009 3:57:52 GMT -5 jeroen said:

I came across this picture of Naiche, had not seen it before and don't know where and when it was taken, nor by whom.



Perhaps we should start a new thread on Naiche. In my opinion his role and position has long been underrated. In addition, as a son of Cochise and a grandson of Mangas Coloradas, plus his relations by blood and marriage to many other important Chiricahuas, he deserves a biography written by a prominent historian. Also, looking forward to any other unusual Naiche photographs...

[naiches2]

Mar 2, 2019 12:09:36 GMT -5 juan said:

Jun 23, 2009 3:57:52 GMT -5 jeroen said:

I came across this picture of Naiche, had not seen it before and don't know where and when it was taken, nor by whom.

Fort Sam Huston, TX. Oct. 1886

[Procopio Palacios, Jr.]

I'd never seen the photo of Geronimo (without Naiche) on the parade ground at Fort Bowie, Arizona... My son photographed me just to the right of that spot, but the mountain background is identical. Also, this is only the third photo I've seen of the orphan, Garditha. I have both the Angie Debo and Robert Utley books on Geronimo, and, for Fathers Day, my son presented me with "From Cochise to Geronimo" by Edwin R. Sweeney. I've wondered about whatever happened to Garditha...

[Nahi]

Hi procopio,I only remember a couple of photos of Garditha including that of Fly at Cañón de los embudos. Not much later, Geronimo and Naiches people surrendered. Among the children of the band there where Garditha and his cousin Charlotte Losahnne. They were sent to Florida together with the rest; although she was not orphan it seems that Charlotte's parents were not with them. I think Garditha died in Mount Vernon although his grave cannot be found for they were buried in the surrounding forest. Only those belonging to U.S. Army were buried in the Mobile National Cementery,like Geronimo's son Chappo for example.