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Post by coeurrouge on Feb 20, 2015 7:13:02 GMT -5
You won't get the answer to your question on this site. It's mostly revisionist history, by europeans who have never set foot in Apacheria, except for maybe a day. I like your question and more power to you. Let's see if couerrouge answers this! It is not revionnist if I am wrong (it is very possible) it is fiction. But why I share this theory is that I can not explain how Goyakla who said he was a leader during 1850s and one of the principal captain of Cochise during the 1860s never appeared as Geronimo on Mexican reports. Because those reports named a lot of minor leaders who were often in contact with Mexico in peace or war. During all of his life especially since 1851 Geronimo was one of the more agressives leaders against Mexico and there is no report of his name once untill 1872-73. My point of wiew is that American Historians wrote that Geronimo had less influence than other chief like Victorio, Juh or Loco just because those historians did not know who he was and what he has done before 1872. I think when Geronimo told his life, he made mistake on dates but it was 50 years later and european time was not in his culture, but I am quite sure he was honest about his influence. It was why I think he had another nickname as El Cautivo. My story of his captivity as a boy is certainly much a fiction but it could be... |
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Post by dT on Feb 20, 2015 9:37:07 GMT -5
RedPaint - Geronimo has somehow become "larger than life". It is a fate that has happened to quite a few of the characters from the Old West. And when that happens, people begin to attach all kinds of importance to a historical figure ... making them into something they were not.
For what I can tell, from Geronimo's own words and the words of Jason Betzinez, Geronimo was a very strong warrior when he was young. He was not alone. He did what the young teenagers did when they became men. He ran in the mountains a lot. He practiced for raids. And he started doing raids into Mexico. If you look at those stories, sometimes Geronimo was successful, and sometimes he wasn't. BUT he never gave up! So he kept doing more raids. He lost a lot of followers, because Apaches got killed on those raids. And so the young Nde dropped out - what was the point of raiding with someone, if you got killed and you didn't bring anything back? But Geronimo just KEPT GOING. Determination made him strong - mentally and physically. That experience taught him all the trails through Arizona and into Mexico. Tremendously valuable knowledge in his later life. His bones became very strong and his heart& lungs ... STRONG.
what Geronimo symbolizes - depends on who you are. He was an inspiration to some of the Nde. He was a "thug and a terrorist" to the white folks who lived in the towns and ranches of Arizona. How you see him - really depends on your own point of view.
Geronimo knew the sacred areas in Mexico very well. More importantly, he knew their tradition and meaning. That was one reason why he left the Rez. and the other (IMO) ... he was a traditional warrior. He loved to conduct RAIDS and get DRUNK. Party hardy! and he wasn't about to give up the lifestyle!!!! :-)
I would not worry too much ... if early reports make no historical record of Geronimo. that doesnt' mean that he wasn't active. it simply means that he was doing his raids effectively. the young Nde wanted to gather useful possessions. so stealth was an important part of their activity. Geronimo was active with raids into Mexico - he just didn't get caught.
one thing that doesn't get much mention about Geronimo - was his method of fighting. today people call this "close quarters battle". But the Apaches practiced such methods a long time before those words were invented. Geronimo was quick and fast with these fighting skills, and very bold with the use of the knife. This is what gave him his reputation as a fighter.
dT
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Post by jasper4 on Feb 20, 2015 11:47:33 GMT -5
he who yawns was and is a Diiyin never a nantan and was as many a warrior of excellent skills and Power. The goal of any Nde warrior was to kill and NOT be killed simple logic along with power or medicine. The fiction of who he is or was will make him into what is legend. The spirit of pure fierce drive to remain free from the vile mexican and gringo or any whom wanted our land o scalps. As a yankee general coined it Nde are the tigers of the human kind.
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Post by dT on Feb 20, 2015 14:08:39 GMT -5
Jasper4 .. yes brother. Tigers of the human kind.
It is clear from the reports of the Mexican Army, Geronimo was a fierce fighter. especially at close range. he killed many of his enemy with his knife. He was bold, and very good at running through the battle between the horses - so the enemy could not easily shoot him. Very cunning and bold!
as you know, he had many, many scars on his body from bullets. that is an amazing thing about Geronimo. he was shot many times. but no bullet ever killed him. always he dug out the bullets with the tip of his knife. very painful! I am sure that the Apaches had a way to heal those wounds, after the bullet was removed. but still, it is a brave person who gets shot dozens of times - but still he goes into the battle!!! that was Geronimo's great courage and determination.
it is said that when Geronimo died, he had bullets in his leg. From old battles. There was pain, but he ignored it. He was a tough person .... very tough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
dT
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Post by dT on Feb 23, 2015 10:27:59 GMT -5
one thing that is interesting about Geronimo ... his great skills with the trails and the tracking.
the words I say here will be controversial. I understand that my Chiricahua brothers may not agree with everything that I say now. whether you believe that Geronimo had "special spiritual powers" really depends on your point of view. perhaps he did!
often when people attempted to follow Geronimo in the wilderness - they would find that the trail simply disappeared. or that the footsteps of a man became the footsteps of an animal. or that the man became an animal, and later turned into a man again (according to the tracks on the ground). Geronimo had great skill for making his tracks elusive and disguising them. he was capable of making abrupt changes in the apparent direction - where he was headed. and sometimes he would use fake replicas (false foot impressions) from the animals of the Arizona area - to disguise his tracks. no doubt he intended to disguise his trail by making it seem that his own tracks had disappeared, and that the animal tracks on a game trail had covered his prints in the dirt. but for a pursuer - it would also appear that Geronimo had changed from a man into an animal.
Geronimo was outstanding with these skills and outwitted all of his pursuers. Indeed, it was these skills that kept him "in the game" for so long - in the wilderness ... even when pursued by trackers who were White Mountain Apaches. and they were VERY VERY good!
dT
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gorka57
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Post by gorka57 on Dec 6, 2016 11:33:22 GMT -5
Hi Charlie, looks like Yanozha, Geronimo´s brother-in-law. Standing next (right) to him is Tsisnah, I believe. Naiche, of course, is standing far right:  |
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gorka57
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Post by gorka57 on Dec 6, 2016 11:35:43 GMT -5
Hi Charlie, looks like Yanozha, Geronimo´s brother-in-law. Standing next (right) to him is Tsisnah, I believe. Naiche, of course, is standing far right: The second from the left is Atelnietze, cousin of Naiche. Laziyah, Atelnietze, Fun, Geronimo and Naiche. |
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gorka57
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Post by gorka57 on Dec 6, 2016 11:37:44 GMT -5
<span class="attachment_preview" attachment="1222" thumbnail="1"><img src="//storage.proboards.com/1261720/thumbnailer/ptgTOQeDFy8NmjTc2u5b.jpg" width="532" height="290"></span><br>The second from the left is Atelnietze, cousin of Naiche.<br>Laziyah, Atelnietze, Fun, Geronimo and Naiche.<br> Attachments:
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Post by charlie on Dec 7, 2016 11:31:56 GMT -5
Thank you Gorka for your new identification. So, no Tsisnan and no Yanozha....
This man (Atelnietze) is very fascinating: he seems a very proud warrior!
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Post by coeurrouge on Dec 7, 2016 16:14:45 GMT -5
Thank you Gorka for your new identification. So, no Tsisnan and no Yanozha.... This man (Atelnietze) is very fascinating: he seems a very proud warrior! The man identified, as already said in another thread, was not La-Zi-Yah. I am quite sure he was Nezulkide an older brother of Kaathenay and seems one of fews Chiricahuas who lived no much time in a reservation. See the 144 Challenge thread. A lot of people tried to identify the last renegades. |
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gorka57
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Post by gorka57 on Dec 9, 2016 10:46:01 GMT -5
When the chiricahuas surrendered to General Miles, Naiche said he was worried about his "brother" absent, apparently looking for horses that had left in Sonora and had not returned. In fact, this Apache whom he called "brother" was his cousin Atelnietze, who had fled to Mexico with a young relative of his named Satsinitsu, an old nednai named Nat-cul-baye and four women and children, who wandered through the Sierra Madre freely for a decade. Atelnietze was badly wounded in a skirmish with American soldiers in 1896 and probably died soon after. Nat-cul-baye died around 1900.
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144 challenge thread
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Post by 144 challenge thread on Dec 17, 2016 4:24:51 GMT -5
Thank you Gorka for your new identification. So, no Tsisnan and no Yanozha.... This man (Atelnietze) is very fascinating: he seems a very proud warrior! The man identified, as already said in another thread, was not La-Zi-Yah. I am quite sure he was Nezulkide an older brother of Kaathenay and seems one of fews Chiricahuas who lived no much time in a reservation. See the 144 Challenge thread. A lot of people tried to identify the last renegades. |
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Post by saskia21 on Dec 9, 2017 7:17:08 GMT -5
I am hoping some one will know the answer, I have read in two seperate books that Geronimo had a brother or brother inlaw called Vincente who died around 1879-80? Does any one know if he was a brother or brother inlaw?
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natethegreat
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Post by natethegreat on Oct 23, 2018 10:44:41 GMT -5
Thank you for these fascinating pictures! Geronimo and the Chiricahua were fascinating people. ITs amazing the hardships they endured. I like to imagine Geronimo with his knife running around the chaos of a hand to hand engagement stabbing men to death while groups of enemy in the distance trying to shoot him down. Which is why he has so many bullet wounds. Geronimo had the power of the Coyote. The Chiricahua stuidied U.S. Army Rifle trianing so they would charge the U.S. soldiers running side to side like rabbits. Im sure Geronimo was very calm running around with his knife killing men. He knew the land very well. In time of danger, Goyakla was a man to be counted on!
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juan
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Geronimo
Oct 26, 2018 15:47:26 GMT -5
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Post by juan on Oct 26, 2018 15:47:26 GMT -5
Good information and picture. Anyone know why there is very little info on the son of mangas coporadas I have only seen a pic of him where geronim an naiche are sitting on top of something looking like canons in Florida I think
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