Geronimo

[jasper4]

Jason Betzinez wrote his own account of life at the time of "He who Yawns" or book is I fought with Geronimo and its details some not so tales of geronimo and his certain faults or misgivings but it is still a good piece I think

[DIGIROLAMO]

May 23, 2009 12:52:38 GMT -5 jinlian said:

Geronimo, together with a group of Apache prisoners, reached Mount Vernon on May 13, 1888 and left on October 1st 1894, reaching Fort Sill on October 4. (source: Angie Debo Geronimo- the Man, his Time, his Place).

Historian Robert Utley (author of The Lance and the Shield - the Life and Times of Sitting Bull )is now writing a new book on Geronimo:

www.friendslittlebighorn.com/interviewrobertutley.htm

Two more photographs of Geronimo:

[jeroen]

Yet another Geronimo image, taken in 1903:

[dT]

from the posting by swa562 ...

"Shot in the right leg above the knee, and still carry the bullet; shot through the left forearm; wounded in the right leg below the knee with a saber; wounded on top of the head with the butt of a musket; shot just below the outer corner of the left eye; shot in left side, shot in the back. I have killed many Mexicans; I do not know how many, for frequently I did not count them. Some of them were not worth counting"

All those wounds. Think of the pain he was in ... how his body felt each morning when he rose from his bed.

But do you ever see a complaint coming from him?
Did he forget how to smile?
Did he ever stop encouraging his people?
Did he despair of life???

No! :-)

dT

[Sharon Jones]

Hello
I have some Birth Certificates and Baptism papers , they were my Mom`s before she died
There from / Old Mission Santa Ines 1760 Mission dr. Solvang ca 93463 / Santa Maria Rancho ( from what I can read .
I would like to find my family members if possible ..... I was told I am some what Apache .
I do not know if you can help me , but I am going to list some of the names listed in my paper work .
If you have some information that will help, please e- mail me at [e-mail]
Correct spelling my be slightly off do to fade .

1. Geronimo
2, Juana De Jesus Olivera
3. Jose Olivera
4. Maria Ygnaica Dominguez
5. Maria De Jesus Felix
6. Juana Leonor Olivera ( Ruiz) married a lot of times )
7. Maybe, Lenna)
8. Jose Ignacio
9. Jose Geronimo Olivera
10. Don Jose Antonio Dominguez
11. Maria Antonio Dominguez
12. Dona Francisca Villa
13. Mabel Yvonne Padia
13. Isabel
13. Dona Celedenia Ruiz
14. Dona Rafaela Cota
15. Tomas Olivera
16. Juanita Olivera
17. Leandro Moreno
18. Jess Moreno
19. Gregorio Lopez
20. Jose Mariano
21. Domingo Ruiz
22. Ygnacio Narciso Olivera
23. Maria Marcela Feliz
24. Josef Ramon Geronimo Olivera / Baptized Oct 1, 1816
25. Juana Maria Olivera Baptized April 20, 1823
26. Juan De Dios Olivera Baptized March 9, 1821
27. Ignacio Olivera
28. Perry Tolliday ( Tolladay Lemuel Perry )
29. Jesse Lucas Moreno
30. Paul Moreno
31. Lee Moreno
32. Aleja Castro
33. Isla
34. Margret Virginia Moreno
35. Juana Olivera Moreno/ Jess Moreno / Lemuel Perry Tolladay Plot 53:1 Lompoc
36. Jose Mariano Pila ( Indian )
37. Maria Feliciana Moraga ( Indian)

Thanks Sharon
936 Bartlett Ave
Placerville Calif 95667

[dT]

first, I am the most humble person here - and I should be. I am not an Apache. But I don't think that your birth certificate for Geronimo can possibly be right. From what I understand, he was born in the mountains of New Mexico up amongst the pines. Near the upper stretches of the Gila River. There were only Apaches there, and they were Bedonkohe people. So I don't think such a birth certificate can exist.

But maybe I am wrong and somehow birth certificates were issued later in life so that Apaches could be written down on the paperwork of the people who ran the reservations. Does anybody know about this?

dT

[sasja]

Found this Stereoviews of Geronimo Shooting an Arrow, Saint Louis Exposition on an auction site:




And this one:

[dT]

his bow technique still looks fine.
It is reported that Geronimo had good eyesight and very good strength - to an advanced age.
He was still a very good shot with a rifle at that age.

Hope I am doing just as good - when I am old too :-)

What you are seeing here is the great strength in the Apache blood lines. The Apaches suffered through many trials, problems and wars. It was amost constant for them in the 19'th century. Their bloodlines were very strong - with old Apaches living to a great age. I think that the many difficulties they faced actually kept the inherited traits from their DNA very strong. That's just one opinion, though.

It is really a trgedy that they insisted on keeping Geronimo a POW in Oklahoma. He should have been allowed to go home to Arizona ... by the time he was that age. And it is still an outrage that they have not returned his remains to his family for burial in a traditional site.

dT

[bri]

I met a guy in Davis, CA in 1999 who claimed Geronimo was his great Grandfather; spoke some of the Apache language; born in Texas; had most recently been living in New Jersey but was traveling all thru the west when I met him; Really Cool vibe to him; we hung out all night; Don't remember his name; wonder what happened to him.

[dT]

its too bad you didn't get his name. many people claim to be related to Geronimo, but its often an exaggeration. the same thing happens with other colorful characters from the Old West, like Billy the Kid and Jesses James. Suddenly - everyone is related.

Unfortunately, people get the wrong impression about Geronimo. He was continuing through his life to fight a war of revenge. He said that he took the lives of 10 white people - for every Apache killed. That may be an exaggeration by him, but it was an attempt at eye-for-eye revenge. But towards the end of his life I think his main goal was just the preservation of the traditional Nde beliefs and ways. He was the last medicine man from his tribe .. still going out into the wild and visiting the old Sacred areas. He did not want those practices to die.

dT

[waganari]

Mrs. Asa Deklugie and Eva Geronimo
Niece of Geronimo and daughter
 of Chihuahua, a famous Apache
 chieftain
Geronimo's youngest daughter,
 16 years old

[coeurrouge]

Another suggestion that I had certainly done before but I did not remember in which thread.

I wrote that for me El Cautivo was in fact Goyakla or Geronimo.
They were both Bedonkohe; had the same age apparently; had both a constant warlike behavior; were both segundo of Mangas Coloradas in the 1850s in the Bedonkohe band; El Cautivo was one of Cochise's principal segundo as Geronimo said he was; both spoke spanish.

Another things are :
that why in the 1880s the Chiricahua, especially the Bedonkohes who fled out of reservation followed Geronimo if he was not know in records (Mexican or American)like Juh, Nana, Chihuahua and Nahilzay before 1872. For me it was because Geronimo had a first nickname : El Cautivo.
And in december 1858 in the Carcai mountain Sonoran troups attack El Cautivo's rancheria and killed 18 people and take 4 prisonners as Geronimo told a similar attack with exactly the same casualties in which he lost his third wife,Nana-tha-thith, and one baby killed.

But El Cautivo signify The Prisonner. From americans El Cautivo was called like this because he was hold as a mexican prisonner when he was a child and Geronimo never said he was mexican prisonner once.
Geronimo also said his nickname was given on the big fight at the date of San Geronimo. We know that the big fight was Pozo Hediondo battle on january, 20th of 1851. But the 20/01 is San Sebastian not San Geronimo.

My theory is that Goyakla was baptised when he was around 10 years old in Janos as Geronimo. For Catholics (source nominis.cef.fr) Saint Geronimo has the reputation to be one of the worst temper of the saint communion with fighting attitudes. Is that remember you someone ?...

Why in Janos. during the end of Geronimo Chilhood war erupted again between Mexico and the Chiricahuas in the 1830s with short truces time to time. In november 1834 Jasquedega, nedni local group leader, went in Janos with fifteen people (men, women and children)to speak of peace. The warlike faction (as the bedonkohe chief Mangas) allowed him to speak for them. Geronimo seemed to have strong relation dated on childhood with the nedni band. I think (carefull it certainly more a romance than the truce but maybe...)his father send him and his mother with Jasquadega for protect them of sonora soldiers. Or simply Geronimo's mother was a nedni woman from this local group of Jasquedega and with his 10-11 year old son sent a visit at this time. If I am true Geronimo was hold as prisonner untill may or june 1835 in Janos, and as adult he was know as El Cautivo.

I also think his first years as warrior were lived in Alope's nedni family, untill march, 1851. His mother now widow without children to care of her, apparently, followed Goyakla. I guess Alope's family lived in the local group of Nednis led by Arvizu killed in march 1851 by Carrasco soldiers near Janos in the same attack that destroyed Goyakla's family. It was only after that Goyakla came back on his band and became a warlike leader of the bedonkohe, in the 1850s, thanks to his diyinand ferioucity.

Again, I share ideas not truce.

[kingsleybray]

well set out, couerrouge: now what are the arguments AGAINST El Cautivo being Geronimo? To balance out our understanding

[Deleted]

You won't get the answer to your question on this site. It's mostly revisionist history, by europeans who have never set foot in Apacheria, except for maybe a day. I like your question and more power to you. Let's see if couerrouge answers this!

[Deleted]

Apr 7, 2014 8:38:57 GMT -5 dT said:

its too bad you didn't get his name. many people claim to be related to Geronimo, but its often an exaggeration. the same thing happens with other colorful characters from the Old West, like Billy the Kid and Jesses James. Suddenly - everyone is related.

Unfortunately, people get the wrong impression about Geronimo. He was continuing through his life to fight a war of revenge. He said that he took the lives of 10 white people - for every Apache killed. That may be an exaggeration by him, but it was an attempt at eye-for-eye revenge. But towards the end of his life I think his main goal was just the preservation of the traditional Nde beliefs and ways. He was the last medicine man from his tribe .. still going out into the wild and visiting the old Sacred areas. He did not want those practices to die.

dT

So is there a right impression of Geronimo? Also, how did he go into the wild and visit old sacred areas when he never stepped foot in Arizona or New Mexico after 1886?Just asking!